The Lifelong Learner: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

In this episode of The Navigating Disruption Podcast, Ivey Coach Shakeel Bharmal sits down with Bryan Benjamin, Executive Director of The Ivey Academy, to explore the essentials of building stronger leadership capacity. Bryan shares his experiences at The Ivey Academy, the importance of lifelong learning, and how embracing discomfort and curiosity can enhance leadership skills. We also delve into his perspectives on AI's role in leadership, the importance of becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable, and what’s next for The Ivey Academy. 

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy
Guest: Bryan Benjamin, Executive Director of The Ivey Academy 

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About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. The Navigating Disruption Podcast is produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations.

About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

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Episode Transcript

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: In this episode, I'll be talking to Bryan Benjamin, the Executive Director of the Ivey Academy. Bryan's been in the world of leadership development and talent development for 25 years, so that's a long time dedicated to this work.

I first met him six years ago when I was going through my own exploration of career next steps, and somebody I knew connected me to him on LinkedIn. He willingly accepted a meeting. I had a great conversation with him. And a very simple suggestion he made profoundly shaped my path, leading me to where I am today.

I get the fortune and the serendipity of getting to work with Bryan now at the Ivey Academy, where he's expanding the Academy's reach not only across Canada but throughout the world. He's tailoring programs to the evolving needs of leaders today in this rapidly changing world. And this conversation will explore Bryan's insight on leadership development, the future of business, the future of work, and how leaders can really develop their leadership learning journey to face the challenges and the uncertainties ahead. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

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Welcome to the Navigating Disruption Podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic and Executive Coach at the Ivey Academy and a partner with the Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking. Here we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings.

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Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people. As I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau Rivers, it's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place. For hundreds or probably thousands of years, where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. Hello, Bryan, how are you?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I'm good. How are you doing?

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Good, good. Thanks for making the time. I know you're all over the place. You're traveling across the country and all over the world. And to find you kind of sitting down somewhere right now, I feel very fortunate to have this time with you. Thank you.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I'm glad we were able to make this work.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, awesome, awesome. Bryan, I always like to connect my audience into history that I have with some of my guests, and I've been waiting for this conversation for quite a while. In some ways, I can say maybe six years. I'll go take us back six years. When I was in my last role, COO, and some of my listeners have heard different variations of this kind of narrative, but when I was thinking about what I wanted to do next.

And I was in a high school class, my kid's high school class, and I was so enthralled by the passion of this history teacher. I thought to myself, I wonder if I should go back and be an educator. And I thought, OK, I'm not going to go back and learn how to be a high school teacher, but maybe I could teach leaders. And I thought, OK, well, maybe I'll go and get an adult education certificate or something and go and teach leaders.

Now, along that same time, I was doing some internet searching and I came across an organization that you used to lead, the Niagara Institute, talking about leadership development sessions. You were doing that at that time.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I was, yeah.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And I said, OK, well, let me take a shot in the dark and let me see if this organization or somebody there will talk to me about this. I wasn't looking for a job yet. I was just exploring. And I came across your name through my LinkedIn search. Turns out that you knew a previous career coach of mine. You had worked together. I said, let me see. She connected me with you. You were so gracious and willing to meet with me.

You are in Ottawa, so I came to see you at your office. We had a great chat. I told you what I was thinking. You were so warm and open and gave me this simple suggestion that kind of changed the course of my world. You suggested that instead of studying adult education, I go get certified as a leadership coach. And that little bit of advice kind of paved the way for everything I'm doing now.

The funny part of that story is I went and did a Google search. You gave me some recommendations of firms to look at. I went and did a Google search, came across the Ivey Academy, and said, I want to do that. And I reached out to you and you said, I think I'd go get the formal coaching certification. And then I didn't reach out to you again because I felt really guilty because I didn't take your advice.

Because I had a conversation with a woman that you now really well, Martha Maznevski. And she, in her magic way, kind of just got me interested, intrigued. I even opened up the conversation by saying, no, I talked to somebody, and they said I should get a coaching certification first. And she said, well, yeah, that's fine. But then she got me in. I did end up getting the coaching certification anyway, Bryan.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Amazing.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: But that was the beginning of our conversation. And lo and behold, a few years later, here we are working together because now you are at the Ivey Academy.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Oh my gosh, the world gets smaller all the time. Yes, that is fantastic how we're able to reconnect after all these years in a different capacity.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So I do have a question here, and it kind of connects to how you see your place in the world. By this point, Bryan, I would have already given your bio in the opening, so people have heard that. But I do want to get your perspective on this. You've been working in the whole space of leadership development. If I looked at your LinkedIn profile, I want to say almost your entire career.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Absolutely.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So you spent so much time in this area about developing leaders. How do you define your purpose, your place in the world?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Wow, that's a big question. [LAUGHS] You know, if I look back on my career, that is probably one of the consistent threads that goes through everything is talent and leadership development, both in organizations that have provided these services, like Ivey Academy, to individuals and to clients, but also in organizations where I've been fortunate enough to be able to build teams and leadership capacity myself in the role.

So that is my defining piece is helping individuals and helping organizations build stronger leadership capacity to unlock whatever results that they're looking to achieve, whether it's growth, whether it's inspiration, whether it's change, whether it's transformation. That's what gets me jazzed.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, OK. So if that's the through line, what is the current place of your role at the Ivey Academy in that journey? Tell us a little bit about how you think about your role there.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: So I'll start very quickly with what attracted me to Ivey was a well respected brand. I met some amazing people when I was investigating the opportunity, Martha being one of them. And said, wow, there's a real gem here. More people need to know about this gem. And it was the opportunity to join a very well established organization with some amazing people and to help it realize its full potential.

So to expand our reach into new and different geographies, to take a look at our offerings and match them with where the world is going and say, geez, leaders need more of this or they need more of that, or organizations are really grappling with this. How can we as Ivey help? And we were able to say, I've got the right ingredients, I just need to make some new recipes, so to speak, with these ingredients. So that's kind of where I'm at and what's getting me excited these days.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So that sounds a little bit familiar to me. Because when I think about what drew me to the Ivey Academy, and in fact, I'll tell you, the initial experience with the Ivey Academy and that conversation with Martha-- and just for my listeners, Martha Maznevski is a professor, faculty co-director at the Ivey academy, a leadership professor. You will have heard me talk about Hercules meets Buddha all the time. That's Martha. And if you want to know more about that conversation, you can listen to my episode called "Hercules meets Buddha," where Martha and I have a similar conversation. And that was a couple of years ago. So look up that episode.

When I talk to her, one of the things that she put words to what I was thinking about, it sounds similar for you. This is what you've been thinking about. The world is going through so much dramatic change. It sounds a little bit obvious now, but if you go back four or five, six years ago, it wasn't as significant as it is now. But it was going there. You could see it coming. And I was feeling like leaders are struggling. Leaders are being challenged. I knew that just from my own work.

I would love to play a role in helping leaders navigate the coming changes, the transformations, the disruption. That's exactly what Martha was thinking about. It sounds like that's what you were thinking about. And we've all kind of come together in this place, in this organization that's thinking about that same thing. How do we help leaders be successful to make an impact during this time of significant transformation and change in the world?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Yeah, it truly is. And I'm almost hesitant to say unprecedented, because the saying of the world will never change as fast as it is today again. It's going to change faster. And it's just going to keep going. But the weight that leaders are feeling and the weight that organizations are feeling, combined with the obligation, it really, truly is a unique sort of time.

And I think we're all being challenged to support each other through this and to make leadership exciting, to make leadership attractive. We want the next generation to aspire to become leaders and how we best support them. And so I feel that is a conversation I'm having daily internally with our colleagues and our faculty and externally with clients in terms of how do I build the capacity I need to make my organization successful.

How do I keep my leaders energized and motivated and engaged? How do I help them navigate the unprecedented, as we've talked about, complexities that are just kind of hitting them like day in and day out? It's a little relentless.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah, it really is relentless. But yet there are still people that are willing to step up, play those roles, and move us forward.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Thank you to all leaders who are doing that.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a few areas I'd love to just pick your brain on, because of course, we get to work together all the time, but we don't get this opportunity to have these kinds of conversations. So as you think about the challenges facing societies today and all over the world and you think about the leader's roles in helping the world through those dramatic changes and pressures in the world, how do you see the role of lifelong learning for leaders as they are facing their responsibility to navigate these societal challenges?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: You're hitting on something that is very near and dear to me and to a lot of the work that we're doing at Ivey is this sort of learning is a continuous sort of habit, if you will. It's like eating healthy or exercising. Don't just do it and then say, I've done it and you're good for the rest of your life. You've got to do it on an ongoing basis. It doesn't always mean taking a big in-depth program. It could be listening to a great podcast. It could be a specific article. It could be a conversation with someone.

And this idea that it actually becomes-- at first, it can sound, wow, that's a lot. But it becomes a lot less overwhelming when you think about learning taking place more frequently, but in often little bite sizes along the way. And that's something that we're spending a lot of time with leaders in saying, what are the bite sized learnings that you're looking for?

Whether it's to understand the impact of, I'm sure we'll get into this, a new technology or understanding how do I navigate some of the geopolitics that are going on and as it relates to conversations I have internally within my organization and my team. But yes, it's that idea of sparking curiosity and helping leaders understand how they can consume knowledge on an ongoing and continuous basis.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. So I mean, from your perspective and the lifetime in talent development, leadership development that you've been part of, how have you seen this approach to learning for leaders change over the last, let's say, 20, 25 years? What's happening now that perhaps wasn't happening, let's say, 20, 25 years ago?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: And I'll speak for myself, because I'm very much in this as a leader who's also supporting the development of other leaders, is this idea of I got to stay sharp and I got to be able to continually refine my skills and my knowledge. And I'm not saying that's new, per se. I think what's new is the recognition of just how important it is. So something that happened last week is now on the forefront.

And I'm thinking about what's going to happen next week and how is that going to inform my leadership? So that idea of staying plugged in, staying curious, consuming more information, trying to find the relevant information from all the information that's available. That feels very different than it did 20 years ago, where learning took place in more intensive blocks at distinct periods of time. Whereas now it's always there.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. So I totally agree with that. And I think about as you were giving that answer, I'm just reflecting back on where I was 20, 25 years ago in my career. I was actually at that time, I was just coming into Ivey and I had a role in an organization. And I wanted to go and move forward in my career. So the decision I made was let me go and do my MBA as that part of the journey.

And sure enough, I graduated from Ivey and what I thought the world was going to be like was completely turned on its head. We had 9/11 right after I graduated. We had the tech boom and tech burst. We had the financial meltdown in 2008. A series of these things that, as I think about in my 20s, what I thought was that getting to the ultimate, being an excellent leader was a place that you get to. And all the factors are known. You can learn all the things there are to learn.

But I think what I've realized now is that the reality is that there's nobody that has the answer of what the future is going to entail. And there really is no ever arriving at a position of I've gotten here. I'm the leader I need to be now. And so lifelong learning is just the normal course of you'll never stay ahead of what's coming. It's just about surviving and thriving through the challenges that life face you. And lifelong learning seems to me the only way to do that.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Well, you hit on something that is, I think, becoming more evident is the need to be uncomfortable not knowing at all. And then I don't know if there was ever a point in time, but it certainly felt like this if I look back 20 years ago, is the leader was-- I felt pretty comfortable. I kind of knew the knowledge that was available that was out there. Whereas now it's like, there's no way I can be an expert, nor should I profess to try to be an expert. I got to be comfortable recognizing that I'm not going to be able to be comfortable with everything.

And that actually has a lot of unintended benefits as well, because it gives lots of space for others to step up and fill gaps. I think leaders are now recognizing more so than ever the opportunity to surround themselves with other people that can bring different complementary skills and experiences to the table.

But we can't be in a situation where I'm going to have all the information I need to move forward or inertia is going to set in, as leaders need to be comfortable moving forward, having enough information, but recognizing that I won't have it all. And the course is probably going to change as I start to move forward. But I need to move forward or else we know that productivity challenges will ensue if I don't.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So when you think about your own practice of lifelong learning, beyond the courses and the webinars even, what are some things that you do now perhaps to support your learning that you weren't doing even 5, 10 years ago?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I read more now than I ever have. I've always been a reader, whether it's online or other sort of sources that come to me. But I feel like even starting a day, I try to just kind of get a pulse on what's going on and what's come out there. And I feel like that is more than I've ever done.

I'm more deliberate in seeking out learning opportunities than I have been in the past. I'll use the gym analogy. Is like, oh, I'll skip today because I got busy or it was raining or whatever. Whereas now, whether it's going to a conference, whether it's actually just seeking out someone I want to have a conversation with, it's allowed me to be much more deliberate in carving out time in my calendar. Not to say I'm perfect at it. It'll always be a work in progress. But I'm getting better, and I see the benefits of doing it.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: What about how do you think about reflective practice? Whether it be journaling or anything related to mindfulness? How does that fit into your routine?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: It is not something that comes naturally to me. I find my brain is always kind of going. And in my role, I travel a fair amount, and I've actually started to become better at using travel time as a chance to not just immediately pop open the laptop and to work on something. Sometimes it's a good opportunity to zone out and watch a movie. That's good for you as well, because rest and rejuvenation are part of it.

But to actually say, OK, let's take a deeper breath here and let's think things through. And I've actually had some of my bigger ideas or even a realization that maybe the path I was going down is not the right path or some aha moment when I've just kind of sat back in my seat, whether it's on a plane or in a train or in a car when someone else is driving. And it's been quite useful. I look forward to it now.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That sparks a real life kind of thing that's happening for you and I right now. You approached me about a month ago, maybe a little less, to co-write an article with you around the future of leadership coaching and the role coaching plays in lifelong learning. And I had this real time experience with you where I would write a draft, send it over to you. You'd say, I'm about to get on a plane. You'd get off the plane. You'd send us a revised article that looks very different than the one I sent you.

And I'm almost, as I read it, I'm imagining you using that process of writing that article or writing this draft as your own reflective practice. And perhaps there were some things that you put on paper that you had never actually fully thought through before. But the exercise of writing the article actually allowed you to crystallize your thinking. Is that an accurate perception?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up, because in fact, even as you were saying it, it made me realize something that I hadn't put my finger on. And that article, a great example, is I got me a draft. I was boarding a flight from London, UK to Toronto. It was a mid afternoon flight sort of going back this way. So I had lots of opportunity to process and reflect.

And I always say the first draft of anything is the hardest draft, even if the end product looks totally different. But it pushed me to think about, OK, what are we doing here when it comes to coaching at Ivey Academy? What's the need in the market? How can we be special? How can we be unique? How can we add something that isn't necessarily already there in our own way?

And it was in part the opportunity to go back and forth and share some of these ideas. Often writing it down does a really helpful job of sparking it. But it got some wheels turning that weren't turning before, and I appreciated that opportunity. So I'm writing more than I have. It's really good exercise.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, so I call this out, because I've been also struggling with that same thing. I've tried. I've taken a couple of cracks at journaling. I stopped and started a few times during the pandemic. And it's fine, it's good, but it's really hard to get natural rhythm of it.

And as I was going through my own coaching certification kind of process and doing a lot of reflective thinking about how you work and learn, I realized for me, I stumbled into the best way for me to do my reflective practice is to write thoughtful LinkedIn posts or thoughtful articles about things that are going around in my brain. And the act of writing the article is the act of me doing reflective practice. But the outcome is that there's a piece that other people can consume and benefit from that perhaps triggers their own reflection in thinking. That to me feels pretty good.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: And I've read some of those posts that you've written, and I agree. I remember one where you're on a flight to Ireland and I should be sleeping, but I'm not. We've all been there. And it works. And you get other people thinking and you put some thoughts down.

I think what it's taught me, and you mentioned this in a conversation we had a couple of months ago, which is a lot of times it's, OK, I want to post every day. I want to post once a week. I want to post every-- and we set these predetermined cadences that we often don't fulfill. But we set them ourselves. So it's like we set ourselves up for failure.

But this notion of I just want to be a little bit more deliberate. It doesn't have to be on a perfectly set formula. I'm going to try to do it more frequently when the timing is right and when I feel I can add value. And it's allowed me to get a lot more down on paper than I normally would have. And I don't feel guilty if I haven't done it in a given week or [INAUDIBLE]. It didn't make sense that week. Maybe the next week I do it three times.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, you're validating me, because sometimes I do feel guilty. Then I say to myself, I'll do a post a week or I'll do this. And then I can't keep up with it, and then I realize that actually it's almost kind of forced when you say you're going to do it at a particular time and a particular frequency. Better you do it when something strikes you, something you think of, something you see or hear that strikes you and you just reflect on it and you put it out there. And that's probably the more genuine, authentic way to do it anyway.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Absolutely. It's much more genuine. And I appreciate for some people in businesses, it makes sense to be on a certain cadence. But I would say for the majority of us, yeah, it struck me and I feel like I've got something to add. And when I read it from others, I feel genuine. I feel thankful that I've seen that opportunity versus when you see a post and it's like, well, geez, it feels like it was 5 o'clock on Friday and I had to squeeze this one in because I promised myself I would do it before the weekend.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, I love it. I love it. So let's put a cap on this discussion we had around lifelong learning. So it's about suggesting, inviting leaders to consider constantly exposing themselves to new ideas, whether that be reading more, looking at the watching webinars, having conversations with people you wouldn't otherwise have conversations with. And yes, and taking programs and courses in micro fashion and also in long form fashion, the way is traditional.

But taking all of those things and taking the time to process them, reflect on them, think about them. If journaling works for you, fantastic. If journaling isn't your thing, then find some other way of processing. Could be writing an article. It could be writing a LinkedIn post. It could be actually addressing an audience of people and sharing something that has moved you.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Absolutely.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: The idea of putting it through your brain to take it out through your mouth or your fingers is probably a good way to pursue lifelong learning.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Absolutely. And then it becomes less threatening. A lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they're thinking of lifelong learning as a big commitment, a multi-day, a multi-month, a multi whatever program, a big investment of cost and time. And yes, there's a time and a place for all of that, for sure. But it could equally be I just read a great article or I followed someone on LinkedIn who's got some really interesting insights on topics that matter to me right now. And it's like, wait, I'm doing it, I'm moving, I'm learning.

And once it goes, it becomes a lot easier to keep the momentum going. And I feel like, geez, maybe I had a conversation at work and I was able to ask a question that I wouldn't have asked otherwise, because I knew something different or I had a perspective on something that I had actually read about or learned about through another way.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. And also the way you described that just strikes me, again, kind of a reflection on one of the principles of my faith is that the pursuit of knowledge, the acquisition of new ideas and learning is not really just for your own success. It's not really just about improving your material life, increasing your power. That may be part of the benefit, but in fact, acquiring knowledge is really to allow you to be in greater service to others. And so the idea of using your reflections to share it with others in whatever form makes sense for you actually is a great act of service.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I really like the way you frame that. One of the pieces that I'm encouraging the teams I lead is stay plugged in. And there's so much going on. But also trying to help them not feel overwhelmed and to provide some guidance. And the best way I find to be able to do that is I got to be going through it myself. Here's what I'm learning. Here's where I'm struggling. Here's where I'm finding value and take of that what you will.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, awesome, awesome. OK, Bryan, we're talking about AI so much these days. I'm always exposing myself to these things. What are you seeing as the role of AI or how are leaders leveraging AI right now in their capacity as leaders?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: For sure. We can't go a conversation without mentioning it or talking about it. And I'm seeing it evolve, because it's changing so rapidly. And maybe I'll talk about two dimensions. So there's understanding AI and the potential benefits, but also the risks that AI is presenting to my organization, to my team, to the work that I do. And that's really critical for leaders to dig in. And they don't necessarily need to be a expert in this area, but they need to know enough about what it can do.

And a lot of times we're talking about small bite sizes. Figure out how it can support you and where it can move along. And of all the things I've seen leaders grapple with, this is probably one of the most challenging. And I think a lot of it has to do with I'm not an expert. I don't like not being an expert. This is worrisome. And oh my gosh, it's changing so fast. And what does this mean?

And then there's this other piece, which is sort of a curiosity to understand that things are changing so rapidly. New innovations, new disruptions are coming at a pace that I will never be fully able to keep up with. But the good news is no one else will either. So we're all in the same boat.

And what does it mean to be curious? What does it mean to seek out what are the possibilities? What does it mean to actually be uncomfortable with a leader? And we've had those conversations internally amongst our team as we've tried the tools that are out there in new and different ways. And some embrace them and have been doing some really cool stuff. Others have, oh, I just logged in last week and I'm getting my toe in the pool.

But we're on this journey together. And so we're weaving it into so many more conversations. But we're seeing leaders continue to be uncomfortable but becoming more comfortable being uncomfortable, if I can say that.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's actually a great service a leader can give to the team is just helping them be more comfortable being uncomfortable, encouraging it, making it safe. In fact, I was running a group coaching session and I asked one of the leaders in the call, what's your next stretch? What's your next goal that you're going to work on in your role as leader? And that's exactly what she says. I really want to work on making my team feel more comfortable being uncomfortable, feeling safe feeling uncomfortable. I think that's a really important critical skill of leadership right now. Being comfortable being uncomfortable.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: We went through an exercise internally recently because we're supporting leaders externally. We got to make sure we're spending time internally developing ourselves. And we went around the table. We started virtually, and then we had a conversation as a team around how are you using different tools that are out there to support your work?

And I heard everything that I expected to hear and a ton of things that I did not expect to hear her say. And from the most unique places. I was like, wow. People are doing some really great things and putting themselves out there. And I was so encouraged by this. And it's a message that I've shared with other leaders just to say, you're going through it yourself, your team is going through it, but just invite the conversations. Let's share the learnings. Let's figure out how we're going down this path together. So we're going to keep doing it on a regular basis. There's always something new.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It's interesting, right, because the use of AI and getting better at asking questions of the AI is a real critical skill to get more value from the AI. But interestingly enough, that pursuit of being able to ask the AI better questions is actually the skill we need to better interact with ourselves as people, with each other, is asking better questions.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: You're much more-- and you put your coach hat on is, how can I ask a really good question that is not long, doesn't have many different tangents. It's really focused in. And yeah, that ability to prompt. We were joking to say, well, we get a different answer if you write a polite, ChatGPT, can you please go look for this information? Versus a really direct prompt that allows for some interesting insights to be uncovered.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. It's almost like you think about just forming this metaphor. In leadership and coaching, you're using metaphors all the time to spark other people's thinking. And there's a metaphor that's forming for me, this idea that you go to the gym and you might work with equipment, weights, whether it be the lat pull down or whatever. You work with this equipment to help you in your development, your growth, your strength. It's almost like I see these AI tools as the equipment that can actually help you build your questioning and inquiry skills, your curiosity skills.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: You're right. There's so many unintended benefits. Maybe someone intended them, but I didn't see them coming. And you realize, geez, I'm asking better questions or I'm able to go further. So we're sort of seeing, oh, I got the information back. Now I'm going to ask another prompt or I'm going to further refine it.

And you're right. Think about leaders when they're giving direction to a team. I'd like you to go investigate this or I'd love for you to be able to do some work on that. And then it comes back. It's like, oh, geez, it wasn't quite what we were thinking. It's like, well, maybe the prompt wasn't as good of a prompt as it could have been at the beginning.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So in the face of all this, I mean, boy, our time is going fast. I wanted to give you a bit of an opportunity to share a little bit about what's up and coming, what's new in what Ivey is pursuing as part of its support of leaders through these times, through new ways of learning. What's coming up for you?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: There is so much coming up. It is such an exciting time right now. And I've never been more excited to have my arms wrapped around so many different cool projects that different people are working on. So Ivey Business School itself is going through a really big push on lifelong learning and making a deliberate outreach to connect with alumni.

And we've got alumni in over 100 countries around the world. How do we best support your continuous and ongoing learning? And it could be we'd love more articles on this topic. Or could you do a live stream on that topic? Recognizing that I think everyone in their lifelong learning endeavors needs to have multiple sources that they draw on. So how can Ivey be one of the sources that makes sense? And we can continue to add value long beyond when someone graduates.

On the executive education side with Ivey Academy, we're accelerating innovation as one of our big strategic priorities. And so that is new and targeted programming aligned with critical issues. So it could be a program on AI. But more so what does it do for disruption and leadership resilience in the time of AI? Topics like neurodiversity and belonging and creating connected teams. The ability to introduce one to one coaching engagements. Coaching has long been an integral part of the work that we do with Ivey Academy, and we've got some amazing coaches, present company included.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: That do really important work with the leaders that we're privileged to work with. And sometimes a one to one coaching engagement is the right solution for a leader. Sometimes it's a program, sometimes it's both. And being able to bring that more deliberately, we've heard the demand from our clients. And so we're really pleased to be able to meet and hopefully exceed what they're looking and expecting for from Ivey Academy.

And we're growing our reach. So I think in order for us to be as relevant here in Canada as we can be, doing work outside of Canada and even starting with doing work across Canada, coast to coast to coast and broader, brings a global perspective to the conversation and the discussions and allows for a more, I would say, enriching learning experience. Those are just a few. I could keep going.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: No, I know you can.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I'll stop on those.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I'll tell you, I mean, because of the way we talked about this at the beginning of the episode, the way things transpired, I ended up coming to Ivey before you did. And so I was there in the time where we were just talking about bringing coaching into programs and just getting it going. And then you came along. And I have to say, I think you've been there a little bit, almost two years.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Two years this summer.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right. I just can't believe how fast we've moved in that time frame in all the directions you've just described. It's been like, I mean, maybe a couple of months in, we just hit the gas pedal. And all of these things that you're talking about are very, very new in that maybe the ideas existed before, but the acceleration to execution has really, really moved quickly in the last, I would say, even the last several months.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Yeah, it feels like the momentum is really picking up. And you hit on something that's really important to me, is a lot of the foundational pieces, a lot of the components were there. And in fact, one of the things that attracted me to the opportunity, there were many, was how many great foundational pieces.

And when I met Martha and she talked about the coaching and she talked about the great program and how we're working, I was like, oh my gosh, we're just starting. We can go so much further. So now it feels like the timing is right for a lot of this. And we're fortunate to have the right infrastructure to be able to move fast on that.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, fantastic. So I'm curious, because you've come from a world of leadership in your career and you've joined a University filled with faculty that are studying the cutting edge of leadership and the biggest problems leaders are facing. Probably met a lot of very interesting professors in your last couple of years. What is an idea that you've been exposed to that's blown your mind?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Ooh, what a good question. And yes, one of the best parts of my job, and I have many, is the opportunity to connect with faculty, whether it's faculty delivering a program, planning for a program, talking about a big, bold new idea. And I have just been mind blown time and time again around what they're researching, but more so how they're researching and how it's getting applied. It is super applicable. It's super relevant. It's like, oh my gosh, this could go into place tomorrow in an organization.

But I got to say, some of the work that Dr. Rob Austin is doing around neurodiversity is something that just strikes a chord with me professionally and personally. And it is so meaningful. I feel it's so cutting edge. And I feel that it's something that every leader and every organization needs to be paying attention to in order to truly unlock the true potential they're doing. And he's just an all around cool guy, so it works well.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So I've got to take a moment here, because I'm sure a number of my listeners may not know. What do we mean when you're talking neurodiversity? Can you give us the quick version of what that means to you?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Yeah, so neurodiversity, I won't do nearly as good a job of describing it. But what it means to me is when-- and some of it is visible. A lot of it is invisible. So if you think about someone who might have a learning disability. Dyslexia could be an example. So they've got all of the right makeup to be incredibly successful in life and incredibly successful in organizations.

But maybe the conditions they need for success are different than the conditions someone else might need for success. In fact, maybe even the majority, if I can be as strong to say that. And so as a leader, how do I figure out what's the success formula for everybody on my team? How do I get the best out of them?

We see that with extroverts and introverts. Sometimes introverts just need time to process. Well, neurodiversity could be considered in the same vein. I'm being very simple on this one. It's much more complex. But if we can start to say, geez, this individual, in order to get the best, they need a different instruction set or maybe they need more time or maybe they need less oversight. That helps too.

But yeah, and that's where when I dig in and have those conversations, I'm actually hosting a live stream later this week on this topic, I was like, geez, organizations can take it to the next level with the teams they have. Because in some cases, they've unintentionally suboptimized the amazing talent they already have access to.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It actually gives you so much hope for the future that we are starting to think about and work on and figure out how do we bring out the best in all people as opposed to the percentage of people that fit what we call normal. But recognizing there's so much strength, capability, capacity that is so untapped with people that just for whatever reason process the world and information differently.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: You're absolutely right. And at Ivey, from degree programs all the way through to executive education, everything is being considered. It's how is the classroom set up? Are people assigned seats or not? And I'm amazed when I see how much time and attention that people are putting into this. And it warms my heart, because you sort of feel that everyone feels that they're special without needing to feel that they're special, if that makes sense.

So everyone walks in, and it's like, yep, my conditions that I look for are here. Even though the person next to me might have a very different set of conditions, it just works for both of us and it works for all of us. And then that power of unlocking the full potential is just it's quite, I'll use your words, mind blowing.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome, fantastic. OK, a couple of lightning round questions. This is a new thing I'm trying in my relaunch. A couple of lightning round questions.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: All right, I'm sitting up.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Assume you make lots of driving trips from Ottawa to Toronto, right? You live in Ottawa. You get to Toronto quite often. You're on the highway, you're in a great mood. It's a beautiful, sunshiny day. A song comes on the radio that makes you want to just pound the steering wheel and sing out loud. What's that song?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Honestly, in a long drive like that, anything by Fleetwood Mac. Just something about that in a road trip, it works for me every time.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Absolutely. I love it. I love it. Fleetwood Mac. That's a great answer. So next question is, you could go back in history any point in time. What event would you like to be there live to be able to witness?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Berlin Wall coming down. I don't know why. I never even really thought of that, but that's the first thing in mind. I just thought so pivotal. And I'm a very visual person and that's visual.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's a great one. Actually have you been to the Berlin Wall?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I have, yes.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It's pretty-- it feels so substantial just standing in front of it. You realize how the world changed in that moment.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: The second one, I'm going to put a second one.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, for sure.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Vimy Ridge. And I've never been so proud to be sort of Canadian around something like that. So I'd love to see how that all.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, fantastic. All right. Last question is actually a little bit of in service to our listeners. Advice to leaders. Could be up and coming leaders, rising leaders. If there's one thing you could kind of have 30 seconds to give them some thoughts to consider today, what would that be?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: For me, stay curious. You can accomplish a lot. Just be curious. Don't get bogged down. Keep your mind open. I do think the path forward is going to look very different than paths of the past. They're going to be much more fluid. They're going to be a lot less obvious. But at the same time, I think there's going to be a lot more opportunity. And I think we're going to see a lot more people creating their own paths and creating their own opportunities.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Love it.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: If early career leader, I'm like, oh, the opportunities are endless, they just might not be as obvious.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. Such a positive, energizing message. And I think there's so much happening in the world that is negative. And look, I don't want to downplay the suffering that is going on out there in the world for so many people. It's awful. It's terrible. Lots of examples of just awful leadership out there.

But this conversation hopefully will remind people that there is hope and there is optimism. We do move forward in the world over periods of time. And staying curious and open is one of the levers that we have, each of us, at our disposal to help the world move forward. Bryan, thank you. Thank you for this conversation. I really appreciate you making your space available for me.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Thanks for having me. It's been great.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. Great. Thank you. Have a great day.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: You too.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, I found that to be an enlightening conversation. I hope you did, too. As we wrap up here, I wanted to share four key insights that resonated for me through the conversation.

The first is how Bryan really reinforced the idea of making lifelong learning an essential habit. Gone are the days where you take a course and you're done and you go back to work, and then maybe a little while later, you take another course. He described learning as something that we have to integrate into our daily lives by consuming new information, by engaging with people, by reading, by putting time in really good reflection at the end of the day. It'll allow us to stay agile and face the uncertainties and the complexities of the rapidly changing world we're in.

The second insight was really around embracing AI in leadership. There's obviously a lot of conversation about AI right now. The part of this conversation that really resonated for me was the idea that actually learning how to use AI and the questioning required and the curiosity required to get the best from AI actually is like strengthening of a skill that we can use to engage with individual people. So practicing using AI will help you in gathering information, help you in decision making, but it'll also help you strengthen the skills that you need to engage with human beings. Asking better questions as an example.

The third insight was really around the power of reflective practice. Now, this is different things for different people. For some, it's journaling. He talked about how journaling wasn't really working for him, and it's not really working for me either. So we talked about writing LinkedIn updates, writing articles, sharing insights through conversations with others and speaking to others. Lots of different ways to do it. The key is to spend a little bit of time every day just thinking about what you're experiencing, what you're learning, and what you want to do differently the following day.

And the last insight really is around the importance of the link between curiosity and adaptability. Our conversation really talked about how important it is for leaders to continue to be curious, to continue to ask questions. In fact, that is the key, essential part of being flexible and adaptable. In an era when change is the every day, I know we talk about that all the time, but it really is the every day. Our ability to explore new ideas and venture into new areas is all underpinned by our ability to be curious and continuously ask questions and learn more.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation, and I hope you have a fantastic day. Thanks for listening.

Thank you for listening. Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you.

To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Visit oceanbluestrategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivey Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis who helps me edit and produce this podcast. And an exceptional thanks to my favorite indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast. Discover more about them on Instagram @LNCConnected and enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode.

(SINGING) I'm not where I want to be

Maybe where I'm meant to be

I beg, I plead for clarity

Break this cage and set me free

I don't care and I don't feel

I don't know what's really real

And I cry, and I cry