Leadership — A Journey Into Yourself: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

In this episode of the Navigating Disruption Podcast, Shakeel is joined by his childhood friend Riaz Bandali, president of Nordion. They reminisce about how their shared adolescent experiences have shaped them as they delve into their leadership experiences in times of uncertainty. Riaz delves into the profound lessons he has learned throughout his journey, the role of lifelong learning in Riaz's personal and professional development and what continuous learning looks like for Riaz and why it's crucial for leaders. 
 

Through their candid discussion, they uncover the power of friendship, resilience, and the never-ending pursuit of knowledge in shaping successful leaders. Join them as they navigate through memories, experiences, and insights in this thought-provoking episode filled with wisdom, personal stories, and actionable takeaways. 

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy 
Guest: Riaz Bandali, president of Nordion 

Other ways to listen:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify Podcasts

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About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. The Navigating Disruption Podcast is produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations.

About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

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Episode Transcript

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Now, this is a special episode that is particularly close to my heart. Joining me in this episode is Riaz Bandali. He's the president of Nordion, a company that plays a crucial role in the global health sector.

Now, what makes this episode particularly special is that Riaz is not just an accomplished leader in the life sciences field but also a dear childhood friend. We became fast friends in grade six. I think we were 11. And we have shared countless memories from that time, from navigating adolescence together and to now reconnecting as professionals after almost 40 years apart.

In our conversation, Riaz opens up about his personal journey, the challenges he faced growing up, some of which I wasn't even fully aware of, and the leadership lessons he has learned along the way. We delve into the impact of early life experience on his career and how they shaped his approach to leadership and resilience.

Riaz also shares valuable insights for leaders to consider as they navigate the uncertainty ahead. Get ready for an inspiring and very personal conversation that spans decades of friendship. Enjoy the conversation.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Welcome to the Navigating Disruption Podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of OceanBlue Strategic and Executive Coach at the Ivy Academy and a partner with The Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking.

Here we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings.

Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people. As I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau Rivers, it's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place.

For hundreds or probably thousands of years where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. Riaz, how are you?

RIAZ BANDALI: Great, Shakeel. Nice to be here today.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And nice to have you. And I'm really, really been looking forward to this conversation. And also I'll say, I've been looking forward to it. But I'm also been a little bit nervous about this conversation because you know me.

All the guests I've spoken to, there's only one guest that's known me just a little bit longer than you. And that was Egon Christensen. I met him in grade four or five. You came along in grade six. But basically, we go back to childhood. So you know about me that nobody knows for sure.

RIAZ BANDALI: Well, it's reciprocated. So I'm looking forward to this discussion. And it's great to have a chance to speak to you.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Fantastic. Fantastic. So let me just ask you really quickly. Just tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell my audience a little bit about yourself. Of course, I know. But just so everybody knows who you are and your position and your role right now professionally.

RIAZ BANDALI: Sure. Yeah, happy to. So actually, my role right now is President of a company called Nordion. And Nordion is part of a publicly traded company called Sotera Health. It's one of three divisions. My role at Nordion is actually the president of Nordion.

And Nordion is actually based in Ottawa, Ontario. That's where I'm doing this podcast from right now. We actually have a class 1B nuclear facility in Ottawa. And Nordion is a pretty neat company. It's a company that not many people know about. But what we do every day probably touches on everybody's lives in one way or another. So I'm happy to talk a little bit more about Nordion right now, or we can cover that later on.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, let's come back to that because I do want to dive in. But you've given a nice little teaser now. Now, my listeners would be thinking, oh, what company touches every part of my life that I've never heard of? So we'll talk about that.

I did have an episode previously with the gentleman that runs a company that provides pretty much all of the pallets for the distribution of everything in Canada and the world, another example of a company nobody's ever heard of but everybody has an experience with. So you're the second one. So we'll get into that a little bit.

So let's just give audiences a background. I believe, I don't know if it's true. I think my audience are really interested in nostalgia because I am. And they keep tuning in. Because we've had a chance to interact the last few years, you are probably one of the people that has as good a memory of life, past as I do.

I remember a lot of details. And every time I talk to you about something, you remember them too. So it should be a fun conversation. But just to set context, you were my best friend starting in grade six. I actually, Riaz, can still remember the day in the gravel field outside the school where I first noticed you, met you on the first day of school in-- I think it's 1980. Would it be 1980 you moved to Burnaby?

RIAZ BANDALI: That's right, yeah.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: 1980. And I think I still remember had a blue hoodie with some kind of Charlie Brown character on the front of it or something. I don't know why I remember that detail. But anyway, we became very good friends very fast. And we actually even lived on the same street for a few years in Burnaby. And I would say that were probably preteens to early teenage years. And. And we navigated adolescence together, I think, right?

RIAZ BANDALI: We did. And by the way, you're giving yourself a little too less credit there. Your memory of events, including what clothing I was wearing when you first saw me is beyond spectacular, so I wouldn't compete on that front. If you remember, that just astound me to this day.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I'm not sure if it's all reality. But anyway, it's what's floating around in my head. You could have been wearing a blue shirt on another day anyway. But look, we did navigate adolescence together. I mean, I think-- if I think about my friends before you, they were really like really childhood friends where we played in the park. And we went on our bikes. And we picked apples and did all that. I talked about that with Egan on a previous episode.

But with you, you were the friend that I had where we were actually finding our place in a bit of a grown-up world. And so we explored and experimented and discovered fashion and music together. That was something I really remember. What do you remember from that time?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, I remember much the same. I mean, for me, I was the new kid in the school. And you were there. And I remember you being welcoming. And I remember you introducing me to people. And I remember it very similarly. I mean, we were going into our end of preteen years into teenagerhood. That's quite the transition for everybody.

And for us, I think it was a matter of establishing ourselves and trying to find what we were going to be and what type of people we were going to be and just exploring different things together, music. We were exploring how that transition from elementary school into junior high, which is always challenging, fun, and scary at times would be as well, so--

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I know we didn't use this word at that time. But if I reflect back now, having all the adult language and concepts that I know now, that was the time you and I together were kind of figuring out what's our social brand? What's our identity in other places? And what does it mean to be popular or liked or distinct in a group of people. I remember that now.

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of those trials and tribulations were probably confronted by many of your listeners. But it's an interesting time, I think, in everybody's lives. It was an interesting evolutionary time in our lives as well.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I definitely took my lead on a few things from you. And I don't think I've ever told you this. But again, if I reflect back, I took my lead on fashion from you. Like, I remember the day you came up with the idea of wearing sweatbands.

I think Bjorn Borg was big in tennis at the time, so you took to wearing sweatbands. And I had to have myself a pair of sweatbands, so I got one. And you took to wearing sunglasses in the classroom. And I found a pair of sunglasses. This was all grade six, I think. And you started wearing pink shirts. And that was the first time I thought it was cool to wear pink shirts. I think you still wear pink shirts.

RIAZ BANDALI: I still wear pink shirts. I've laid off the sweatbands. And I don't wear sunglasses into work anymore. But I have a bountiful array of pink and colorful shirts which I still sport and still enjoy sporting. So I'm glad you've become part of the pink shirt fan club.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Me too. Absolutely. I wear all the time. OK, so let's dive in. I mean, I could reminisce all day. But the beauty is that we see each other all the time now so we can do this. Let's dive into a conversation for this episode.

We talk about leadership. We talk about leadership during times of uncertainty and disruption. When you think of the kind of leader you've become, what words would you use to describe how you think about your own leadership, how you think about leadership as you try to exhibit it?

RIAZ BANDALI: So that's challenging only because I think people have different leadership styles and approaches to leadership. So oddly enough, probably about a month and a half ago, I was contacted by a government institute that was doing some training for leaders in the public sector.

And they asked me to speak about leadership. And I found that to be interesting but difficult to do because when I think about leadership and the evolution of leaders, I think about different things at different parts of my career. And if I had to sum it up, I guess, to me it was something that I read when I read Jeff Immelt book called Hot Seat.

And what he said about leadership was it resonated with me. It was leadership is an intense journey into yourself. If you can go to bed at night feeling beat up yet wake up in the morning feeling resilient and ready to listen and learn, you can be a good leader.

So to me, the more I reflect on leadership and my leadership, I would say it's been evolutionary. And the biggest feature has been being able to learn through each of the evolutions, through each of the roles, through each of the stages. And there have been different things, I think, that have really resonated with me as I looked back during those stages.

But they're different. It's not one thing that's been consistent, save for the fact that I've always been pretty focused in on achievement and driving towards results that are tangible, just different ways to get there.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. Always been intensely focused on driving results. And so measurement and all those things are really important. So I'd love to dive into that. But before I do, something you said that really twigged for me because it came up in another conversation I've had for my podcast and what I do for a living now is you talked about always learning.

And I sometimes don't think we spend enough time talking about, what does that mean for a leader to be always learning? Because actually, there's a lot to it. I'd love to hear from you, when you say I'm always learning, what does learning look like for you in the way you conduct your day to day?

RIAZ BANDALI: So it means different things to me. I mean, I think the most important part of learning was what I mentioned before. It's listening. It's listening to what is impacting your team, your people, your customers, the market that you serve, your competitors.

I think there are things-- the pace of change right now. It's beyond comprehension. It's always been something that I've been attuned to. If I go way back, I gave you the Jeff Immelt quote. Probably my favorite leadership quote actually has nothing to do with leadership. As you know, my background was in science.

And so I always remember and I'm paraphrasing that Charles Darwin quote of it's not the strongest of species that survive. It's those that are the most adept at change. And that has always been something I've thought about when I was in undergrad all the way through graduate studies, all the way through business leadership.

So for me to adapt to change, I think we always have to constantly be learning. And that means we have to be constantly listening. And when we constantly listen, we need to take the opportunity to try to synthesize that information.

And we should listen to people with a diversity of opinions because our tendency is to listen to people who are going to agree with us or have similar thought processes or orientations as we do. And I find that that's great. But you also learn a lot from people who disagree with you.

And I think that's something that a lot of people have of shut down over the last few years, is that they only want to listen to people who agree with their stance. And whether that's a business context or a personal context, I think it's important to at least examine all viewpoints so that you can constantly learn. Doesn't mean you need to agree with all of those learnings. But it's important, at least from my perspective, to try to understand the why.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And it's actually really hard to learn and practice listening to people that have a viewpoint different than your own that perhaps aren't as enthusiastic about your idea as you are. It's not like it's easy. It's actually hard to do that. What do you do? Do you have to find yourself reminding yourself that, OK, let me take it easy here, let me back off, let me ask questions, let me listen? Is that something you catch yourself doing in your day to day?

RIAZ BANDALI: I try. I try. And I try that with my team to make sure that I get people who wouldn't speak up sometimes to speak up. But I get people who I think would have a different viewpoint to at least espouse what their viewpoint is and talk to us about why.

And I would say that I am cheating somewhat. I mean, at the end of the day in the roles I play, I know I will get a significant amount of influence over what the decision ultimately turns out to be. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't challenge myself to do exactly that, to try to listen to other viewpoints.

And I try to find out why. So it's not just, hey, espouse a viewpoint that's different from mine or the vast majority of people that are participating in a decision. It's to try to understand why. And I pay a lot of attention to that because if you can't articulate why, that's telling me something.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Well, actually interesting what you said there is that as the leader, you actually do have the power and authority to make the final decision. You know that. So if you know that, then that actually is quite liberating in that, why not listen to other perspectives?

Why not hear everybody out? Why not be provocative and get people to share things that maybe they don't feel comfortable saying? Because ultimately, I have the final call anyway. It doesn't hurt to hear everybody. And I might be influenced or changed or be able to process things differently.

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, it definitely helps. But I also try to encourage people to make sure that they understand by disagreeing with me or disagreeing with the team, there's nothing wrong with that, that we need that.

During my times in my career, I've seen probably the smartest leader I've ever, ever had to interact with from a business perspective. Still to this day, I think he's the smartest guy, who unfortunately undid himself because he surrounded himself with a bunch of people who would always tell him he was the smartest guy in the room and would always agree with him.

And 95% of the time, it was absolutely true. And what he was saying and what he was thinking and how he was analyzing stuff, he was the smartest guy in the room. And what he was saying was absolutely bang on. But it's that 5% that undid it.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Sometimes you only have to be wrong once in a big way, even if you've been right in the 99 other times. That's actually a really good point, is that I talk to leaders a lot of the time.

And they feel like their job is to provide answers and always have the answer to whatever challenge people are facing to the point where sometimes, even when they don't have the answer, they feel like they got to come up with something. But actually, the opportunity to step back and say, I don't know the answer. And that's OK not to know the answer. Let me ask other people who might be able to give that perspective to help. So it does take that humility. And it takes some pressure off when you know that, right?

RIAZ BANDALI: It does. I mean, again, I think hopefully, as a leader, I've tried to build strong teams and teams that can voice their opinion. And if I'm going to leverage that capability to the best I can, I need to give them an opportunity to not only chime in here but feel heard and feel like they're empowered to make decisions as well and to help me make decisions.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, very cool. Awesome. So that was a great reflection. Why don't we come back to Nordion now? I mean, maybe before you get to Nordion, tell me a little bit about your career. You said you started off with an intention to go into science. I think I remember from high school, we parted ways a little bit in senior high school. You were the athlete. I wasn't. And we had different social circles, partly because of that.

I remember that you were very academically oriented. And you were really focused on the sciences. So you went down that direction through education. Tell me a little bit about how you transitioned from there to business. What did your career look like?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, so when we left high school and, yeah, we didn't get a chance to interact, it was different circumstances at that point in time in terms of social groups and even where we went to University and stuff.

I actually did my undergraduate degree in microbiology and genetics and was very interested conceptually, theoretically, intellectually with science. And so love that aspect. Thought it was challenging. Thought it was interesting.

And my focus was more in the life sciences. So it wasn't really physics or oriented towards chemistry. It was more biology, microbiology, biochemistry, really intrigued me. I still think the most complex thing in the world is the human body. And it proves it every single day.

So that really interested me. But as I was kind of going down my journey toward my undergraduate in science, I realized as much as I liked the intellectual stimulation, the learning, the knowledge, I didn't like being in a lab.

And I did well in my lab. But I've broken off lab equipment that I was absolutely convinced that UBC had me down as a cost center. I was like, this is not something that I should probably be looking at for a long-term role for me to be really entrenched in stuff that was lab science. And I started to get very intrigued by business.

And I had an uncle of mine who, after my undergraduate, said, come help me run what at that point in time was a small business that was in the computer field and that he was thinking of reshaping because it was going through some challenges. And I had a chance to do that for about a year and a half. And that really triggered my interest in business.

And I've been fortunate to be able then to go on to do my MBA, which was in a very different field. It was focused on strategy and finance. And I've been very fortunate. And I was very compelled to find a role that let me combine science and business. And I've been fortunate for the last 30 years to be able to be in roles that have let me do that for 30 years.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, so you've worked in pharma, right?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, so always in health and life sciences. So I started off my career in venture capital. But the venture capital focus that I was with was with a fund or a set of funds that were always focused on life sciences investing pretty broad. We did biotechnology, life sciences tools, health care services, health care informatics.

Then it was life sciences tools and analytical instrumentation, 10 years in global clinical research on the early stage of drug discovery and development, more on the development side. And then a couple of years, as you know, I mean, I think that's where we reconnected, taking a-- oddly enough, working with a group of investors to take a company in the cannabis space, that should have never been in the cannabis space, out of the cannabis space.

And we ended up selling it to a biotech company. And that was an interesting experience. And then yeah, last couple of years, I've been with Nordion and back into really the life sciences health arena.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, let's talk about-- let's talk about Nordion now. Tell us what Nordion's role is in the world.

RIAZ BANDALI: Sure. So Nordion actually is the world's leading provider in terms of actually quantity market share of cobalt-60. And for those of you who are going to strain back to your high school days, you remember seeing the periodic table of elements.

Well, some of you with memories as strong as Shakeel would probably remember that cobalt's atomic number is 59. And we deal with cobalt-60. So what that is, is a cobalt-59, which is the naturally occurring element getting access to an additional neutron through irradiation in nuclear reactors to form cobalt-60.

And what cobalt-60 does is it's a molecule that emits gamma radiation. And what that allows you to do is gamma radiation actually is lethal to microorganisms that can populate different surfaces.

And the reason that's important is if you look at single-use medical devices-- so these are things that you have in your medicine closet at home, that you'd see in any doctor's office, that's used in every hospital, surgical suite around the world every single day, things like Band-Aids, things like masks, gloves, caps, stents, implants.

About 40% of all of those devices, and there's tens of millions used every day, are sterilized using gamma sterilization. And that relies on cobalt. Cobalt-60 is actually the entity that provides the radiation that sterilizes 40% of all of those devices.

Cobalt-60 also helps to sterilize things like spices. So I think I was mentioning to you earlier that I had to actually go into my daughter's kindergarten class today to tell them a bit about what Nordion does. And that was interesting and perplexing. So I brought in a Band-Aid. I brought in masks that they remember having to put on during the pandemic.

I brought in a little container of cinnamon. And they knew what all of that stuff was. But what they didn't think about, which not many people do, is if you're going to consume cinnamon, if you're going to put a Band-Aid on, you're assuming it's safe to consume and that your Band-Aid is sterile.

And it's a very small consideration set that most people don't even think about because you just assume it is. But it isn't unless it's actually getting sterilized. And cobalt-60 helps sterilize food. It helps sterilize 40% of the single-use medical devices.

And Nordion actually provides probably the vast majority of the cobalt-60 that is actually utilized around the world, not only in Canada. But most of it is used around the world in very specific sealed sources. We also design and engineer the irradiation sites where these actual sources go into, into large conveyor belt systems so that the devices go around them or the spices go around them and then come out sterilized.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. So, I mean, look, this sounds-- it sounds very specialized. And I'm curious, before you had this opportunity to work for Nordion, did you even this kind of thing was required or existed from your scientific training? Is it something you've always been aware of that happens.

RIAZ BANDALI: So the oddity of me and Nordion was when I actually started my career, when I was referencing, I was in venture capital and life sciences tools and instrumentation and even the early part of clinical research. I was with a company that had five divisions. And oddly enough, I worked over a period of about 16 years for four of those five divisions.

The only division I didn't work for that we owned at that time was Nordion. And I used to joke with the guy who ran Nordion on hire me for a day. And I'll be the only guy who can say I've worked for all five divisions. I still think I won that race because I worked for four of the five. I don't think anybody worked for more than two.

But yeah, that's what I used to joke around the president of Nordion with. And who would have ever thought that 12 years later, I would have had the opportunity to come back and run Nordion. Now Nordion is a different company now from what it was then. But I did know a bit about Nordion way back from when I started my career because it was part of--

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, so your life is full of full circle moments. That's a full circle moment. I'm a big noticer of full circle moment. So let me now come back to us and our relationship. We've already talked about our childhood together. And we didn't see each other for many, many years. And a couple of times we've connected on LinkedIn.

And then very recently during the pandemic, you reached out to me. I think I was active on LinkedIn. As I became a coach, you reached out to me. And you mentioned this company you were working in the cannabis industry. You hired me. We worked together. You were in Montreal at the time. And you were then transitioned to this company, Nordion, in Ottawa.

So we lived on the same street when we were, whatever, 11 or 12 years old. We disconnected for-- I don't know what-- 30, 40 years. Who knows what the number is? Probably 40. And here we are now living, I would say, pretty much in the same neighborhood in Ottawa 40 years later. That can't be random, right?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, it definitely is a full circle moment for sure. Yeah, it's interesting to see the evolution. And by the way, I should say I do appreciate the help you gave to me with that company.

And my plug for you is that initially when I was introducing, hey, we're going to bring in somebody to help us with leadership and coaching, I had three distinct groups that were sitting there saying, hey, I'm really excited about this on my leadership team. I had a group that was like, yeah, I don't know what this is. But hey, everybody wants to do it, so let's just-- whatever.

And then I had a group that was very, very skeptical about what this is going to be. I don't even know why we're doing this. I don't think this is going to be a useful use of my time. And by the time they were done, I think everyone universally was coming back on, hey, what a great experience. We learned so much. We had a chance to reflect on who we are. And that's a testament to and your coaching skills.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you.

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, that was great.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you. Thank you.

RIAZ BANDALI: It was great not only for me but I think everybody from the team. When I talk to them occasionally now, they still bring up and ask how you're doing and recall fondly.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, thank you.

RIAZ BANDALI: --work with you.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Very kind. I've had to work really hard to accept compliments and praise and learn that just say thank you. So I really do thank you for that. And thank you for actually trusting me to bring me in these circumstances because when you brought me in the pandemic, I mean, that was a time-- to be honest, I was just launching my coaching business at the time.

I had worked in coaching in different ways in my past career. But you were one of those people that just took a chance. And I've been very lucky and been blessed to have a really good, thriving set of clients and businesses. But you were one of the first to get me started during a time that was tough. the pandemic was a tough time for getting going in a new business, so I appreciate that.

And it's been really, really an honor and a privilege after so many years to see how you've evolved as a leader from knowing the 12-year-old, to understanding you, to seeing how you've evolved as a leader. I know it hasn't been easy. But it's really an honor and a privilege to get to watch that in action.

And I can honestly say from watching the dynamic now in two organizations, how your people respond to you, I'm pretty proud of you for how you've evolved as a leader. So congratulations for that.

RIAZ BANDALI: Well, thank you. I'll take that compliment, too. So I appreciate that.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So I have to go back a little bit in time. I think that there's so much richness that comes from exploring our past, our history. When I first started in this business, I did a lot of writing, exploring my own childhood and the things I've learned from childhood.

So I always ask leaders about lessons from childhood. When you do think about your childhood, whether it be the time when we knew each other, before then, after then, are there any experiences or things that you feel have shaped or impacted the kind of leader you have become?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, I think we all have things that I think did help shape us from a childhood perspective. So for me-- I mean, I think you knew this. So when we met, my mom had actually been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis a few years before.

So my dad-- we were an immigrant family who just settled into Canada. We'd been there for about 10 years. My mom was diagnosed with MS about four years after we moved to Canada. I was probably about seven. My brother was just born at that time, just shortly after her diagnosis.

And when we met each other, which I think onset of grade six, we could see her symptoms amplifying. And by grade eight, so two years later, she had to transition from our home into a care home because it was just getting too difficult for us to care for her need set appropriately and make sure that we could deal with everything we needed to deal with and that she could be in a spot where a health care needs could be looked after.

And that was difficult. I mean, you can imagine, as everybody could, somebody in grade six with a brother who was like literally seven years younger, so five at the time and the transition of your mom having to leave the house because you couldn't take care of her, move into a facility. And then you're watching continually as you see these symptoms amplify. And a couple of years later, she couldn't speak. And she was pretty much sedentary in her bed.

So I'm going on to that to say, hey, look, woe is me right. I mean, I know a lot of people have faced a lot of challenging things. But that was something that did shape not only the leader I've become but the person I've become.

I mean, initially you're trying to do that and deal, as we talked about right at the onset, with the transition from being a child into adolescence and being a teenager. And that's tough enough to deal with when you're not facing that circumstance. And so I made some mistakes definitely during that time frame. And I reflect on how I never wanted to repeat those mistakes and think about what I wanted to do moving forward.

And I was fortunate because what I learned from it far outweighed any of the mistakes and the transitions you make as you're going into teenagerhood. So I learned to be very responsible at a very young age because there was no other outcome. My dad was working all the time. My brother was only five, or six, or seven years old. And so I had to be a brother and a dad figure when my dad was working away.

So responsibility, I learned the fact that I wasn't going to use that as a reason not to achieve everything I wanted to achieve, whether that's academically, whether that was athletically, whether that was in school. I turned that into my area where I could just focus and forget about all those other things going around-- going on around me.

It was I could immerse myself into school and into sports and into being active in the school community and being socially engaged and really trying to do a bunch of things that as much as that was part of who I was, it was also an escape for me.

And the third thing, I think, which still prevails to this day, is it always got me looking forward. I couldn't really be in the moment because I was always thinking about the next thing I had to do.

And I think that is something that over the last couple of years I've tried to change. But it still is something difficult because even with successes, even with accomplishments, I really can only relish them for literally minutes before I'm thinking about, well, what's the next thing I have to do? What's the next thing I want to do? What's the next thing I need to do as well?

So those are three things about who I am. I think that's also shaped me as a leader. I'm never kind of satisfied with where we are, that whole change paradigm on if you're not getting better, you're getting worse, that stems from some of the things that interesting shaped me from that time.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So your achievement orientation, the driving of results and wanting to see performance in any business you run and group of people you lead, you think the seeds were planted? That's one of the things that came out of that time?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, I think so, I think shaping who I was, the whole responsibility of got to make sure that I live up to the expectations of the people who brought me into the role or the people who are counting on me to make sure that the company succeeds that stems from my responsibilities set.

Hey, I enjoy what I do because it does-- I've always had to sink myself into what I'm doing comes from that and the orientation towards I never try to rest on my laurels. And that isn't always a good thing.

I would sit there and say, look, I've tried to condition myself to sit here and say, it's OK to show gratitude. It's OK to be content. It's OK to be happy with where you are, as opposed to always worrying about-- not thinking about today and always worrying about tomorrow. Because today goes by pretty quickly.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, for sure. For me personally, I'll just tell you right now and authentically, the conversation we've had today and I would say even the conversations we've had over the last couple of years, this last little bit has been the most insightful and valuable for me.

And I'll tell you why is, again, you interpret the past differently as you look at it as an adult. And if I go back to that 11-year-old kid that I was, of course, I knew that your mom had MS. I knew that was true. I knew you had a little brother that was with you a lot. You took care of him.

I knew there were probably some pressures, one from being an immigrant, and two, from your dad being a single dad for the most part because your mom couldn't do the things that my mom could do, for example. I also knew that you were like a straight-A student and high achievement-oriented and the star center of the basketball team.

But I never put the whole thing together to say how hard that must has been informative for you. At that time, I never thought that, boy, how much pressure there is on you or what you're going through. I just saw this guy that was achievement-oriented, high performing, popular, good-looking, dressed well. The girls liked him.

And I didn't really fully appreciate how much pressure there was on you. And now that you're telling me, one, I'm fully appreciating it, but two, realizing that all that stuff was actually an escape for you also.

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, it absolutely was. And I mean, again, not trying to sound special here. I mean, I know a lot of people when they're going through those teenage years, we all put on facades of, hey, everything is great. We want to be popular.

Again, looking back on it-- and frankly, I didn't talk about it. As I look back, I didn't talk about it. I didn't talk to anybody about it for the wrong reasons. Again, I thought it would make me seem weak, wouldn't have. It probably would have helped.

I thought it would distract me or make people think-- maybe even pity me or whatever. And to me, that never was something I wanted. And looking back at it, of course, you take a different approach to it or maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. I mean, it's always easy to look back in retrospect.

But I think a lot of people go through things when they're going through big transitions in life. And my only advice would be, hey, it probably is better to talk about it than not talk about it. I genuinely believe most people there are good people. And they're there to help and offer some support. And if nothing else, offer a year to help during those transitions.

And I wish I would have taken more advantage of that, but I didn't. So all I get to do is tell people, hey, that stuff worked for me. But I would do things differently if I went back a long time ago now.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wouldn't we all. I would say that one thing that I'm guessing has come out of that for you is this willingness and openness to now probably reveal when you're feeling challenged or under pressure and talk about it a bit more. Is that true?

RIAZ BANDALI: A little bit. But to be honest, I'm still not that good at that. So it's an evolutionary process. And I think at times, you are who you are or potentially who you wanted to be. But you are who you are. It's still not the easiest thing for me. But it's something at least I'm conscious of now and try to do better.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, fantastic. Amazing. Well, I'm really grateful whatever the forces were that we ended up in the same neighborhood. I thought it was amazing that we got to go see the journey concert together. That was a real surreal experience to be at a concert, listening to music that was big during our childhood and adolescence. And here we are as adults listening to that.

One other connection I'll make to our past is another classmate of ours, although we weren't really close to her, Stephanie Bolster, who is a friggin Governor General award-winning poet now, who I think was probably the smartest person in junior high school, sweet young lady that never bothered anybody.

She's going to be on a podcast. I reconnected with her during the-- she asked me to make sure I said hi to you. And what was really interesting-- I'm going to share this with you now-- she told me that, like everybody-- and of course, she's very good with her words. She's a poet. So she said that during the pandemic, like many people, she started reflecting on childhood early life experiences.

And as part of that process, she started looking for people that she admired or connected with or felt some connection to. So she told me she looked for the two of us on LinkedIn specifically, and that she actually connected the two of us because she remembers us at that time being really joined at the hip, being really good friends.

And it's just fascinating to think that-- I'm sure you've thought of her. I've thought of her over the years, but that we plant all these seeds in our life with people in our childhood. And there's all these people floating around that you've impacted without even knowing you've impacted.

I don't really know if we ever talked about it. But I think we both admired her because we were academically oriented. She was always doing really well. I think we admired her at the time. And here she was thinking about us, right?

RIAZ BANDALI: That's very cool. That's very cool. And I look forward to listening to Stephanie on your next podcast because that'll be great. And yeah, I mean, oddly enough, I actually did think about Stephanie a few times because I did admire her at school. She was very bright. She was definitely somebody who I held up as somebody that I wanted to be as smart as.

We actually lived in the same city for a long time. And I knew she was in Montreal and at Concordia. And I didn't live too far away from Concordia when I lived in Montreal. So at times, I did feel like, hey, I should reach out. Didn't get a chance to do that. Looking forward to hearing her podcast. And great to hear from her. And I hope she's doing-- and it sounds like she's doing wonderfully well, so really nice to hear.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, I connect with her for like 20 minutes a while ago, just talking about doing an episode together and really enjoyed it. Basically, we're going to talk about what leaders can learn from the arts and poetry being an example of how can poetry help leaders actually do a better job of self-reflecting and thinking about their leadership style. So who knows where that conversation will go? But it should be an interesting one.

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, I look forward to tuning in, for sure.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, awesome. OK, look, there's so much ground I wanted to cover. And we didn't cover a lot of things I wanted to cover. But maybe we'll get it all in the future. But let me just tap into a few things to be of service to our listeners.

You've held a lot of leadership roles. You've already given a lot of insights and advice. But is there anything that you would-- any advice you'd give to young up and coming leaders to think about the future, their roles as leaders in society today?

RIAZ BANDALI: Yeah, again, I would sit there and say, look, again, I really do believe that leadership is a journey into yourself. And every time I've thought about that, I would have some things to say like, hey, do challenge yourself to always learn.

Do learn who your authentic leadership paradigm, style, whatever you want to call it, is going to be because the most successful leaders I know are themselves. They're not pretending to be somebody else. That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn or incorporate good things that leaders do. I've done that throughout my career.

When I think somebody does something very well, I try to incorporate that into what I do moving forward. But at the end of the day, it is about yourself. Again, I think there's different things. There is no reward without risk at times. And you absolutely will learn much more from failure, as hard as it is, than you will from your successes. And take the opportunity to fail sometimes, not too much, but sometimes.

There's a lot of things that I would sit there and say I've had an opportunity to learn from. No universal truths. Be yourself. Focus on yourself and who you are. And yeah, continue to challenge yourself to learn.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. Love it. Excellent advice. OK, we're going to do a lightning round as we wrap up the conversation. Three questions. Don't worry if you don't have an answer at the tip of your tongue. Spend a minute thinking about it. What's your perfect Sunday?

RIAZ BANDALI: My perfect Sunday is actually now spending time with the family, generally with my five-year-old or with my 21-year-old, doing whatever they're kind of interested in. In my roles, I have the ability. And I have the obligation also to travel a lot, to meet customers, to talk to strategic partners.

So when I'm not doing that, I actually like to spend time at home. I don't like getting on to the 100th plane that I have to do for the year. I like this to spend time with my wife and my children at home and with family.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Quiet day at home on a Sunday is a great day for you. That's excellent. So you mentioned the fact that you travel a lot. You've been to lots of different places. I think every time I mention a place I'm going, you've already been there a few times. So of all the places in the world you've traveled to on business, if you were to have one other place to live other than Canada, where would it be?

RIAZ BANDALI: That's a hard question because I really am a big fan of Canada. But I would sit there and say, the one place that always intrigued me to live would be Sydney, Australia. And the reason I liked Sydney was, well, as you well know, we grew up in Vancouver. And I miss Vancouver now. For a long time, I had no interest in going back to Vancouver.

But what I like about Sydney is it reminds me a lot of Vancouver. It's very cosmopolitan. And it's very multicultural. It's right by the ocean. But it has much better weather than Vancouver, not as many mountains, but a nice city that every time I go there, I sit there and say, hey, I could probably live here.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, good. All right. Sydney, Australia. And then you already mentioned-- I was going to ask you, what is an impactful business book that you've read? Would it be the book by Jeff Immelt? Is that the one that you would say is the most impacting book?

RIAZ BANDALI: I don't know if that would be the most impactful book. I try to read as much as I can. And I try to look at different things. So I think some Malcolm Gladwell books have taught me a lot about thinking and looking about it's not the easy answer all the time. Sometimes you got to look deeper.

So his Outlier book was great, I thought, in terms of challenging your thinking of what drives success and what you think it is and what it might actually turn out to be. So there have been a stream. I mean, I think the books that really got me interested in finance and building companies and stuff were all of the books around what happened in the late '80s on the corporate raiders.

I mean, when that time-- and we knew each other at that time. When all that stuff was going on, I knew nothing about it. I didn't know what Wall Street was. I didn't know what a corporate raider was. I didn't know what junk bonds were. I didn't know why they were-- how they shaped the business world, even as late as today.

And so when I started to read things like Den of Thieves and The Predators' Ball, that got me really interested and say, hey, there was a whole world that I didn't even know about at that time. And I thought it was exciting. And so I try to take different learnings. I don't have one book that I can say, hey, here's what I go to every time.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, awesome. Great. Riaz Thank you for a fantastic conversation. Oftentimes I have these conversations with guests and I often will not really chat with them again for a little while because they live in a different city. But you live in my neighborhood. And we're trying to work out a time to get together for dinner again in the next six weeks, which we will. So I look forward to talking to you then. Thank you again for your time. And lots of love to your family.

RIAZ BANDALI: Thanks a lot, Shakeel. I really appreciate you having me on the podcast. It was great to get a chance to speak with you. I look forward to listening to Stephanie's podcast, too. And yeah, thanks for being a great friend. And I look forward to seeing you soon.

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I appreciate it. Take care.

RIAZ BANDALI: OK, you too.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, I thought that was a very special conversation and quite enlightening. It was filled with personal reflections, wisdom, and genuine inspiration. Let's take a few moments to highlight some of my key takeaways from the conversation. First was the conversation around early influences and how they can shape our leadership.

Riaz's life experiences have profoundly shaped his leadership style and outlook on life. Facing personal challenges, such as his mother's battle with multiple sclerosis, Riaz learned the importance of resilience and responsibility from an early age. Our conversation reminded us how our past, our friendships, and our shared experiences can deeply impact our character and the paths we choose to follow.

The second insight was that leadership is a journey into yourself. Riaz believed that leadership is an inward journey of self-discovery and growth. Inspired by Jeff Immelt's book, Hot Seat, he stresses the importance of being open to diverse perspectives and committing to continuous learning, reminding us that being receptive to differing viewpoints is crucial for effective leadership.

The last key takeaway is really an interesting blend of his education in life sciences and microbiology. Drawing on the wisdom of Charles Darwin, Riaz underscores the necessity of adaptability in leadership, citing the whole principle of the survival of the fittest.

He realizes as we face ongoing disruptions and uncertainties. Embracing change, relentlessly pursuing new knowledge and new skills are key factors in our personal growth, our professional growth, and our survival as leaders.

So in closing, Riaz's journey serves as an inspiring testament to the power of resilience, continuous learning, authentic leadership. His own ability to navigate personal challenges while achieving professional success offers lots of lessons for leaders at every stage of their careers.

So as we continue facing the unknown, let's remember the importance of adaptability, empathy, and the pursuit of knowledge. Thank you so much for joining us in this episode of the Navigating Disruption Podcast. And stay tuned for more inspiring conversations with leaders making a meaningful impact in their fields. Until next time, thank you. Have a great day. Thank you for listening.

Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you.

To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Visit oceanbluestrategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the Coaching page at the Ivy Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast. And an exceptional thanks to my favorite indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast.

Discover more about them on Instagram at lncconnected. And enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode.

[MUSIC] I can't flow like this no more

No, I can't make it

A fire behind my eyes

Media song, suffocation

It'll break me

Information in the skies

When your eyes finally found mine, it was fair that I'm defined by the chaos in my mind

I believe what I could see is a wave tearing at the seas

And I wonder what's behind

And my ears are bleeding

And the reason isn't the logic of the season taking the pleasing from my soul and leaving me to die

In the field the leasing, LNC like racing

Unstationary animation taking me from the purpose of my life

[MUSIC PLAYING]