Gender & Family Dynamics in Leadership

In this episode:

"We all have the same 24 hours a day."

In this discussion, we dive into how this rhetoric oversimplifies the complex realities faced by individuals based on gender and family dynamics. Societal expectations create a disproportionate burden—managing not just career demands, but also personal and family responsibilities. This "invisible" work adds significant strain, making the idea of equal time management unrealistic and unfortunately often leads to burnout for women.

For this episode of Learning in Action hosted by Bryan Benjamin, Executive Director of The Ivey Academy, we’re joined by Janice Byrne, Associate Professor of Entrepreneurship at Ivey Business School. Over the course of an hour, we discuss the mental load and extra pressures that women and caregivers have to attend to, along with the overwhelming pressure to be perfect and the importance of setting boundaries.

 

Episode transcript:

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: People fear repercussions. And I've had so many of my friends come to me and say on a legal basis, if I tell my work that this has happened, they know I'm trying to have a child, are they going to hold it against me? Can they let me go?

And unfortunately, I've seen it go both ways. And now I've seen it start to get better in organizations, where that isn't the case. Where it's a supportive environment, and that individual is given time off to deal with their issues.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Welcome to Learning in Action, your trusted source of new research, insights, and practical advice on critical issues in business, presented by the Ivey Academy. In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that impacts nearly every professional, whether directly or indirectly. Gender and family dynamics in leadership.

Balancing career progression with family responsibilities is challenging. And it often comes with unique pressures, especially as workplace expectations and family roles evolve. Today, we'll explore how gender roles and caregiving responsibilities shape the leadership paths of many professionals, impacting everything from career growth to work-life balance.

To unpack these themes, we're joined by an exceptional panel. Sabrina Kumar Ceccarelli, Vice President and Assistant General Counsel at Lightspeed Commerce. Eva Salem, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Brand at Canadian Tire Corporation. And Janice Byrne, Assistant Professor in Entrepreneurship here at Ivey.

Each of them brings a unique perspective and wealth of experience in balancing high-impact careers with family roles in advocating for more inclusive workplaces. In this episode, our guests will discuss how caregiving roles intersect with career advancement, the ways organizations can better support caregivers, and the leadership shifts needed to foster an inclusive environment.

Here's your host, Bryan Benjamin, with today's guests.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Janice, I want to get started with exploring sort of the broad intersection of caregiving and career progression. And so from your perspectives, what sorts of caregiving responsibilities impact career growth and leadership opportunities in today's rapidly evolving and ever changing workplace?

JANICE BYRNE: Absolutely. We've got so many different interpretations and understandings of caregiving. And so we've got perhaps like new mothers returning to the workplace. We've got working parents maybe who are living in cities where they don't have family support, maybe new cities, or maybe they're expatriates.

We've got freshly divorcees, people figuring out new living arrangements. And then there's an awful lot of people who are involved in elder care or caring for people at home, maybe with a serious illness. A quarter of the Canadians over the age of 45 who provide care to a family member or a close friend with serious illness. So lots of different types of caregivers.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And thank you for that context. The care extends the full continuum. We always talk about going full circle, right? And many are not just having small children at home, but also elder care and others within that portfolio.

So let's go to you next, Eva. I'm going to give you a quick heads up so you can think about this. And so new mothers returning to the workplace. Eva, can you share with us sort of what the return to work experience was like, especially with a US lens on it, if you will?

EVA SALEM: Yeah, I was working in the States during that phase of my life. I'll start by saying we've made so much progress between when I had my kids and what is currently happening. It was harsh, I will say. It was literally like eight to 10 weeks. You came back, it was full throttle. It was five days a week.

I worked in the cosmetics industry. So it was largely females. And it was a lot of very exhausted women trying to re-acclimate when their bodies and their lives were really just turned upside down. If I compare that reality to what I'm seeing now, I am encouraged. I do feel like we've made a lot of progress.

I think it's much more acceptable professionally to take the time that you need. COVID in particular, I would say, eased that transition even more for new moms returning. Yeah, my experience, it was a very difficult time.

There really was not much support around it as well, like nursing rooms and that kind of stuff. Even female groups within organizations didn't really exist for the most part. So you had your peer group, and you kind of relied on your peer group, but there was nothing systemic or structural in any of the corporations at the time that was there to support women during this really difficult time.

We've come a long way. I think that's very encouraging. But obviously there's still work to be done. And I'd be curious in Sabrina's take on it with a one-year-old. You're living at real-time right now. And even the paternity side of things, that stuff did not happen when I was having my kids. So it's an interesting contrast, I think, probably to Sabrina's perspective.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: And thank you for sharing that, Eva, and also shining a spotlight on some of the progress and where it has been made. And clearly, we'll dig into progress that has not yet been made and where we need to go and hopefully into the future.

But Sabrina, why don't you-- you've got a pretty full and active house in addition to a pretty full and active career right now.

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: Yeah. And it's always such a cruel irony that your career seems to take off at the same time you're expected to raise these super young children that need you the most. So I am coming to the last month. Actually, November 2 will be the one month mark of an 18-month maternity leave.

This was a leave I took with my third child. And it has been an amazing experience. It's kind of compounded by the fact that I have these two other children at home. So in addition to being able to spend the time with the baby as needed, I've also been able to really indulge in those other two children, where I'm not always able to do that.

The anecdote that I'd give you, and it's not a great one, but my job is very demanding. And I took off like two weeks before my scheduled C-section. And I did a couple of things with my kids. We were making little arts and crafts.

And my son, he looked at me. I literally had done like two things. This was the second thing I'd done. And he said, mom, you're doing so much with us now. And it was heartbreaking, but also kind of like a reality check moment of, my goodness, my time is going with these young kids, and I'm not even seeing it. I'm not even able to catch up to realize that, hold on, how mired in my corporate world am I?

So part of that informs my decision to take the 18 months, because I felt like it was time spent with all three. And I have worked for a boss at one point who said to me, at some point in my career, what's $10,000 in the span of a career? And I would offer that to women. What is six more-- women or whoever the caregiver is. What is six more months in the span of a career?

For me, I work in tech. It was going to be a chaotic and challenging environment if I had left only a three-month leave or a four-month leave. Things move so fast. So me coming back at 18 months versus 12 months versus eight months, I felt like the challenge was going to be the same. And so I took the full time.

And we are so lucky in Canada to have that time. Because I have worked for companies with American employees, where women are going back at six months with C-section stitches unhealed still. And so should you have the financial means and be able to structure your life in that way, I would offer women that same kind of question. Is, what is six more months in the span of a career if it's something you want to do?

And when I was on the social recently, one thing I said was we are often fearful of losing the momentum of our career, but the success that has so often gotten us to where we are is within us. It's that skill set. It's what we've applied. It's the kind of interpersonal skills that we've developed from our education and experience.

And those things can be deployed in multiple environments. So I went back to a job after my second that wasn't working for me. I could sense it wasn't going to get to where I wanted to be. And so that's when I moved to Lightspeed. And it was the best move I made for my career.

So I would really encourage caregivers to have that faith in themselves and be fearless kind of when you're reentering the workforce. Because if you are confident and you are hardworking, that those opportunities will come your way. They just may be unexpected, but that can be a great thing.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Oh, I love the word fearless. Yeah, I think you touched on something that I think so many have had. As a young voice can really create a big sort of aha moment in terms of time and attention. And yeah, I really like your framing it over a 30-plus year career, right, is a moment in time. And it's not to diminish the moment in time and how crucial that is, but sometimes trying to toggle that with something a little bit longer.

I want to shift and take the conversation around the role of the organization. I think all three of you hit on some really important pieces, which, what can we control as humans, ourselves as humans working within the context of an organization in many cases?

And how do organizations better support leaders, and especially senior leaders, those with big roles and big portfolios, balancing sort of the caregiving responsibilities? And that could be a child caregiving, it could be parent caregiving. For many, it could be both, and getting it at all sides of the continuum, if you will. Especially at sort of that age where career is often hitting a stride and things are humming.

So we'll talk about what organizations can do, and then I do want to talk about what does it mean for early career and new mothers that are at different stages as well. So, Eva, I'm going to bring your voice into the conversation here first.

EVA SALEM: On the maternity leave side, I think organizations are fairly progressive at this point in understanding the need to retain talent, to keep female future leaders at the table. The cost of losing that kind of talent and retraining and whatever, I think there's a level of awareness and action and structural and systemic change that has taken place, which is great.

On the other parts of things, like caring for elderly parents and that side of stuff, I think it's still early days corporately. There really is not a lot of acknowledgment outside of specific teams and manager-employee relationships, at the larger, more macro level, enterprise-wide, when it comes to care, other than I would say, maternity leave. So I think that's an area that definitely still needs a lot of attention.

I think it tends to also really affect senior leaders, because you tend to be a little more further along in your career, your parents are a little bit older, et cetera. So it's an interesting conundrum where it's actually the people who should be setting the policies who are being affected the most by it.

So I think those are conversations that are beginning to happen. I know here at Canadian Tire, for instance, you go from challenge to challenge, whether it's maternity or kids' school needs or anxiety or special learning needs to elderly parents.

Like, there is always things outside of your work life that is happening. And corporations who are able to adjust and support their talent through that are the ones that ultimately will thrive, both financially and just in terms of having the best talent at the table.

So currently, I would say a lot of it is one-off conversations and specific to teams and specific to manager-employee relationships, and that shouldn't be the case. There should be more process. Even sick leaves, I have to say. Unless you yourself are sick, there's very little leave support, systemic ingrained leave support for when you are a caregiver for someone who is sick.

And I think those are all areas that are still areas that need to be addressed from a systemic corporate perspective.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: You hit on something really important, which is the broader organizational role. And yes, there needs to be the one to one and personal conversations, but ideally, that's happening within the context of something broader and maybe more well understood. Janice, I'd love some of your perspectives on this question.

JANICE BYRNE: To build on what both Eva and Sabrina said, but Eva, when we spoke about this, the change that needs to take place, I guess there is structural or systemic things that can be done. We also need the culture of the organization to match that. So that these things might be in place, but we have to see that there's a supportive culture of when we avail of these supports.

And I also think the one thing that's really important is just this whole notion of disclosure, because we're still operating the ideal worker, right? And sometimes there can be a stigma, there can be like a fear of if I disclose, because whatever the challenge is that I'm dealing with, whether it's juggling trying to get my kids the timing with the childcare or whether it's looking after a sick child or a sick relative at home, or a sick parent, or an elderly parent, or a close friend.

When we have these things going on in our lives, we're not always-- we don't always feel like we're in a situation where we can disclose and actually talk to, either talk to our manager about it, or if we're in a senior leadership role, to even talk to our subordinates about it.

And so we want to think about a situation where we can actually create organizations where there-- we talk about psychological safety, but it's important for so many reasons. But that is one reason. So that when if I divulge this information, if I talk about the physical logistic challenges that I'm facing or even the psychological challenges that I'm face--

If I've got a parent with dementia, and I'm thinking, how do I deal with? I'm so worried about them. I cannot be in my work right now because I'm thinking about what's going to happen at home. These are all things that we need to be able to share at work, because all of us, we're going to go through different strains of this at some stage.

So it's really creating a culture and managers to being aware of this so that they can have these conversations, and they feel like they can share without feeling that they're going to be stigmatized or rejection, or that there's going to be some fear of repercussions, basically, when they do share.

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: I've just been nodding along. This has been resonating so much. As a people leader in the company, one of the things I also think is that yes, employees need to be encouraged to share, but also we need to start looking at training our leaders with how to respond to those things.

Because it's not always the case that-- and the example, we will talk about this later, is like in the instance, for instance, of a miscarriage. If a male leader has to deal with that, he needs to know the delicate nature of how to go about doing that, as well as the physical kind of aspects of it.

So I think-- and myself for like an elder caregiver, I would need to be trained to understand how do I most appropriately respond to that. So I feel like that piece is really missing. We're training people on some gender and some race and some kind of social norms and differences, but we're missing this part of it.

JANICE BYRNE: 100% agree. I do think it is a gap. And then in general, the cultural thing is so true. And the foundation of, at the end of the day, trust. And I think trust is easier to build sort of one-on-one, person to person, but it needs to be a broader work culture of trust so that these things can start happening at a more standardized or systemic level as well.

So yeah, that's the balancing act for sure.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: When you-- you hit on some points that were so important around-- and I look at this, a male leader within an organization. And a big part of why I was so excited for this conversation is I learned at every step of the way.

But you hit on something, which is, some of these conversations are going to be taking place with people that will never understand at the same level what someone has gone through physically, emotionally. But at the same time, they can provide an appropriate space to allow for conversation and ideally get to a point where we figure out some plans for a path forward.

So the idea of psychological safety so that someone is sharing. Because we know if someone has a child, you know that happened, right? Usually it's very public, and we know that happened, we know the time frame.

But we've started to talk about some things that unless someone talks about it, it's actually impossible to know what someone's going on, and the weight that they're carrying into the workplace and the potential impact that it's just having on their overall well-being.

We talked about training a little bit, but what can organizations do to build a culture of psychological safety so people are comfortable sharing? Even if they don't have it all figured out, but it's I'm carrying this weight, and I want to have this conversation with someone I trust without fear of repercussion.

Because I like my job, I like my organization, I want to be productive, but I'm just-- I'm dealing with stuff. Like, what can organizations do? And then, I'd love to talk about what can individual leaders do within the system as well to create that space?

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: One thing that's worked for me is being transparent about my struggles and my life and trying to lead by example. And I feel like-- so I had a stillbirth, which was a full-term loss. And I shared that within the company. I wrote an article about it. I've talked about it now on TV. It's something that everyone knew about.

So when I had an employee at an organization go through something similar, my hope is she felt comfortable coming to me because she knew that I had kind of talked about this broadly. But people fear repercussions. And I've had so many of my friends come to me and say on a legal basis, if I tell my work that this has happened, they know I'm trying to have a child, are they going to hold it against me? Can they let me go?

And unfortunately, I've seen it go both ways. I've seen it where people have been let go, and then they do think, did that inform the decision? And now I've seen it start to get better in organizations, where, as you said, there's a better culture where that isn't the case. Where there's a supportive environment, and that individual is given time off to deal with their issues.

EVA SALEM: I couldn't agree more. I think people learn by example. I think when you see senior leaders being vulnerable and showing their whole self, it opens up the opportunity for others to do that. We've set up an ERG at Canadian Tire that is a mental health matters ERG. I'm the senior sponsor for it.

I bring in senior leaders to talk about the issues that they're struggling with in front of whoever wants to attend. And it just helps destigmatize the fact that people are dealing with struggles at all levels. And that A, it creates more empathy in general. Because as you're engaging with others, you're seeing a part of their lives, you're not seeing everything that they're dealing with.

And then in addition to that, it makes you just conduct yourself within your teams in a way that just has a much broader scope and a much broader understanding of what's going on. But I do believe these things start at the top. And I think seeing senior leaders lean into these uncomfortable conversations for most takes a lot of courage, and that courage is contagious.

And I think it's kind of-- just it's small things that you can do, but they do send big cultural shifts within the organization.

JANICE BYRNE: I think also, Bryan, even just in terms of what concrete things that organizations can do or practical things on top of this culture and the care, I think there's also practical things that we can do easily. For example, is even having supports there in terms of information supports.

So for caregiving, to have an information where people can go to find out new things, where we can share resources or knowledge resources. Like for example, one thing we've done here at Ivey actually, because we were recruiting more and more women faculty.

And one thing we've done here is you set up in a new city, you need to find out how do I get kids and summer camp? And when do I have to sign them up for? But that's the really good one, but I missed the deadline. It's for January. Oh, no, what am I going to do? And now I'm left with all the bad camps, and my kids don't want to do them.

But there was all this information about babysitters, about camps, about all these different things that I set up here. I found it out, but it was all in my head. And so just shared information portals, where big organizations can put that in a city, could put that information there for employees or workers to be able to avail of it.

I think there's practical things, like helping employees find out how to navigate kind of which human resources, like what are there-- when people return to work. And obviously, flexible work arrangements. There's no doubt about it.

If you need to-- if you need to pick up a child from school, or if you need to bring your mom to the doctors, flexible work arrangements. Even if it's starting 30 minutes later or being able to take your afternoon off. And feeling that you can ask for that, or that that can be given easily without any repercussions, that's important.

[SOFT MUSIC]

 

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Navigating sort of disclosure and sharing, and we talks about feeding office politics. And so some of this can be incredibly personal. What if you don't want it to go more broadly? How do you sort of strike that balance between what do you share, who do you share, when do you share?

I appreciate there's no perfect answer to this, but I'd love your perspectives. Because I worry that some may start to feel overwhelmed and not share because they're not sure where it will-- where it will go.

EVA SALEM: It depends on the individual. I think you need to do what's right for you. You need to feel safe, and you need to feel that you're going to get the support that you're looking for. So not everyone needs to have everyone know everything about their life, but everyone is entitled to feel supported.

So I would-- if you are more private about it and want to be private or don't feel like you have the manager that you feel like you can talk to about this, HR, that is their role. You should definitely be reaching out to your HR people and figuring out what the process is and how the organization can support.

And if you do have a relationship with your boss where you feel that you can trust them, or people on your team where you feel that you can trust them, and you feel speaking and sharing would help you I hope that you do that. But it really is such a personal thing. And having that flexibility is really important to decide what works best for you.

And the one thing I would encourage people is to take a moment. These are big things. They evolve over time. They change. Your needs change. The crisis that you're dealing with changes and evolves. And just giving yourself the patience and the leniency and the self-compassion to know that it's not a one and done conversation or a moment in time. And you miss that moment, and now it's inappropriate.

There's just a lot of self-inflicted pressure that we put on top of already a very pressured situation that hopefully we can begin to unravel a little bit.

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: Briefly, what I do with employees who come to me with such challenges is I ask them what they want me to do with that information. Do you-- for example, if it's a fertility or something like, what do you want me? Do you want me to share this with the head of our legal team? How do you want me to characterize it?

Do you want me to say you're just-- you're going through a tough time with some physical issues? I can frame it however you want me to. And whether it's by the company code or not, that's how I am going to operate. I'm not going to share somebody else's very personal information except in the way they want me to. And I'm also going to be that person to them who will hold that in trust for them.

Obviously, there's situations where that may be different, but thus far and what I've encountered, I'm able to navigate it in a way that you can share with me however much you feel, and then you tell me how you want me to pass that information on. And thus far, that's worked. And I could certainly see situations where it won't, but so far so good.

JANICE BYRNE: I think it's also important to think about, as a manager or as a leader, when people come to you, so this kind of the open communication is extremely important obviously, as Sabrina talked about. But I also think that we should always think about our own lived experience and how that can impact and how we can sometimes make assumptions, actually.

And so when I think back when me-- when I had my-- when I was dying to get back to work. I really wanted to get back to work, because it was going to be a break. I could actually be in the office and just have some peace and quiet.

And if I was going to work on something for an hour, I could work on something for an hour. It was lovely. So I was dying to get back. It's to never make assumptions either about based perhaps on your own lived experience.

And also with respect to sharing or not sharing and disclosure, there is also this notion again which Eva mentioned, is everybody's different, and it should be up to them. And for some people, work can actually be a refuge, right?

And work can actually be a way to, you've got these different responsibilities that-- and sometimes, it can be actually a relief to be at work. And so that everybody is different. So not to make any assumptions based on what your knowledge is of working mothers or what based on your experiences of having a sick parent or a sick relative.

So that is another reason, I guess, why this open communication is so important. And that you try to park your own kind of previous assumptions or things that you think are-- because not everybody wants the type of help you think you might want, and to be mindful of that.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I know I've been guilty of that. You're sort of playing it through, and I want to connect with someone. It's like, oh, I've lost a parent, you've lost a parent, and we sort of talk about that. And you immediately recognize like, Oh my gosh, I can't profess that our experiences are alike in any way.

And people are all sort of coming from different starting points. So being able to put that to the side. I think it's helpful to have it in your mind, because maybe it frames it, but finding the right place in terms of when it factors in.

Sabrina, your comments around what do you want me to do, if anything, with this information keeps someone in control, right? Now I'm in control of the conversation and the narrative. And maybe I say nothing now. And maybe in a few weeks, that changes, because things evolve and continue to look a little bit-- a little bit differently.

So we've talked about disclosure and how we do it. And I think it's very clear that there is no one size fits all. There's clearly a role that the organization can play, especially around creating support for managers and what their role could look like in leaders and that culture of safety, and then what individuals can do on a case by case basis.

So let's talk about that culture of reciprocal care. Where caregivers feel comfortable seeking help but also offering support as well. So we've talked about support in terms of a listening ear, what else could support look like when information is shared and someone is talking about a certain situation?

Or in some cases, we hear situations where they're dealing with, it's not one piece in isolation, it's actually I'm dealing with this and this and this. And on their own, I can handle it. But actually, it's the combination that's creating a real challenge.

So what is that-- what is the sort of role of reciprocity sort of play in this in terms of what organizations can do and what individual leaders can do? So I'm going to bring you, Janice, into the conversation first on this one.

JANICE BYRNE: The creation of mutual support among colleagues is just so important, right? Both as the support and the moral support, but also the informational aspect. So really, we want a situation where asking for help or supports is normalized.

So that's what-- we want to get to a stage where we can. Kind of when we do need-- we do need help with something, that it's not seen as weakness, or that it's not seen as something that has negative repercussions on that, because it's a give and take.

And that I can help out on this. And then in the future, if there's going to be leeway given, then I can return the favor. So that's really important, I think. Is really that mutual support and among colleagues. And it can be simple things, I feel like.

For example, if we go back to the case of working mothers or whatever, even just organizing work lunches or things-- where people can share experiences, trade kind of like tips, and that that is organized. Or that there's times in meetings that are actually parked for personal conversations, right? So that this kind of open communication and this care can be cultivated, I suppose, in small ways.

And again, I'm thinking of a lunchtime thing just because I remember I used to get stressed out over the thought that something would be on after work, and I wouldn't be able to go, right?

BRYAN BENJAMIN: So true. Something I want to bring into the conversation, we have gender in the title here. What are you noticing in terms of employees and sort of what they're dealing with and what they're coming forward with?

Is there-- I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this-- female coming forward and saying, this is kind of what I'm dealing with. Male coming forward and saying, this is what I'm dealing with. Are you seeing any differences?

And what role can organizations do to maybe expand the notion around family and caregiving and the role that different caregivers, regardless of gender, are playing. And challenges that caregivers have when we think about it across the full continuum. Especially as it relates to elder care or beyond the maternity piece that may have very specific needs that are occupying a lot of time for some parents.

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: I can speak a little bit to the childcare piece. One thing is we use Slack at work, which is like an instant messaging program. And one thing that I had noticed, and I don't think I started doing it, I think I saw it from someone else. Is that when someone had a sick kid at home, there'd be a little emoji and say like, sick kid at home.

So that's just a very small representation, but it creates this kind of immediate comfort. And I started using it, and people on my team use it. That like we all understand what that's like. And we're kind of juggling beyond the normal juggle of a work day.

So again, it's that piece of like, I think you can say tone from the top or being open about the struggles that you're undergoing, and also just having that kind of understanding of other people and what they're going through.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I love your comment around it's not just conversations, sometimes maybe it's a little band aid emoji that means my kid is sick, and I'm not going to be as responsive as I normally would be because I might be called away. That kind of levels the playing field for sure.

EVA SALEM: The majority of these issues aren't gender-based. And even maternity, which obviously affects women, it affects both sexes in many ways. I don't know that there is really a difference in terms of you approach it one way with women versus with men.

I think it's more creating an environment where people feel safe to talk about this stuff. And I think the reality in my experience, focus group of one, is men struggle more with talking about this stuff than women, to be honest.

And so I think in some ways are overburdened in that they don't feel that they can speak about it. They feel that they will be judged more harshly by speaking about these things. So I think being aware of that and acknowledging that as well as you navigate through this stuff is useful as leaders.

And so they're not gender-specific issues, they're human-- they're human issues. They're people who are growing and have full lives issues. But I do think there's a difference. Generally speaking, it does feel like men hold a lot more of that stuff and feel more uncomfortable sharing. So figuring out how to help on that side.

JANICE BYRNE: I think I agree for sure with the notion of-- because there's masculinity and toxic masculinity. And we've got workplaces also where sharing is maybe not encouraged, and that's for both men and women. But then men also have the personal kind of constraints that we have in our society of not sharing and not being a crybaby.

The flip side to I think women today, I think have a big-- particularly young women, have a very strong pressure to be perfect. To look good, to look slim, to be healthy, to be fit, to eat the right foods. We've all seen Barbie. We know the dialogue.

But we do have a very high pressure and put a lot of pressure on ourselves because of this to be the perfect mom. To be the perfect mom, and to be there for our sisters, for our brothers, for our parents, whatever.

And so I still feel like caregiving, there's a heavier burden on women. And research-wise, it does have a hard-- a heavier impact in terms of like mental illness or depression. That ongoing caregiving with no support can actually impact women more negatively than men.

So I think, though, having said that and being surrounded by young students, young people here all the time, I do also think that things are changing with respect to young men wanting to be more involved fathers, for example. So there is change happening, for sure, but I still do think that there's a very high kind of pressure, a lot of pressure on women to be that perfect caregiver.

EVA SALEM: And I just want to be clear, I agree. I think largely, it's still disproportionately task-wise, tends to go towards female. But I still also believe men have a hard time-- a harder time speaking about these types of issues.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Can I ask a question around what a leader can do if someone isn't disclosing, but you suspect something is going on? Either you've heard through another channel or you're just noticing they're off, for whatever reason.

Like, how do you initiate the conversation, not knowing if the other person is going to be willing to open up or-- like, I'm going to leave it at that. Because it's a big question. But I know leaders are struggling with this. They're like, I want to help, I just, they're not saying anything. And I know stuff is going on.

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: It's really delicate, right? And I've been in that situation. I think some of us have also been in situations where we know someone's leaving, and we hear it from somewhere else, and this kind of sentiment.

One thing I do, and I think for me, it's about being proactive. Because I think in that moment, you're not going to force it out of someone. You have to be careful in doing that. One of the things I do in every one-on-one I have is at the end, I ask like, OK, and how is your mental health? Give me a one out of 10. And how are you doing? Outside of work, how's everything going? Are you OK?

And I never prod, but I try to give the platform and the forum for that person to say something. And I may even offer a couple of things from my life. Like, for example, right now, I'm going through-- like, this is the hectic. So again, it's I just try to create that environment of openness. And everybody's different. You're not always going to get someone saying something.

But like a little example is when somebody said, oh, I just got in an argument with my spouse this morning. And I was like, oh, is it the who does more thing? Like that every parent argues about? And they were like, yes, that was exactly it. It's like yeah, that'll happen till the end of time, it seems.

So it's just, again, I try to lead through that empathy piece and that like example piece, and just kind of finding that common ground.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I love that in giving that space. I like the scale too, because how often are we in a situation where you're, how is it going? Oh, it's fine. And you move on. I'm like, sure, it is fine. Maybe it is, but let's sort of see. Janice, Eva, any other thoughts on this and creating that space?

JANICE BYRNE: We're in Canada in such a melting pot of different cultures. I think that is important. And that also the notion of intersectionality, and that when you've got women of color in leadership, [? there's ?] different issues. I think definitely on the cultural barriers to sharing, for sure, there could be like within certain cultures, the notion that if I divulge this information, it will be seen as weakness.

And I think that's important to acknowledge and also not to push when-- I mean, we've already talked about this, not to share when the person doesn't feel comfortable with that. So yeah, absolutely, I think they're really valid points and something I need to think more about too.

EVA SALEM: The only thing I would add to it is, because this is the biggest struggle in some ways. Is when you can see that someone is suffering, and you want to help. To say it's delicate is an overstatement. So I think it comes in the form of doing the daily work over time. The building, the relationship over time.

Having the foundation that when you ask about someone's well-being, they know that you are there because you care about their well-being, and there's a relationship there. Otherwise, it gets really prickly really quickly.

When I can see someone is suffering and I want to be there, I hope that I have put in the work in advance of that so that they feel that they can share, and we can help where we can. Hopefully, it's not something where you see it happen, but you know that if you do ask or if you do whatever, it most likely will land in an off-putting way. And I think that's more of a reflection of the relationship than the situation.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Well, that idea of-- not an idea, I think that recommendation around putting in that time, and I've built that relationship, I've built that credibility. I've seen myself wanting to solve-- so sitting across from an employee, I know they're struggling. I want to help them today. I want to get a solution and get them on the right path, whatever that looks like.

But recognizing that might not be happening in conversation one or conversation five, right? We might need to do something over a longer period of time. Trust can do pretty amazing things, I think, once we've built it.

What's the advice that you can give leaders who are sort of navigating that? Whether they're going through it, they've been through it, they're going to go through it again, and probably at multiple times throughout their career. It's not a one and done sort of scenario.

JANICE BYRNE: We've talked a lot about what organizations can do and what leaders maybe can do. And we often talk an awful lot about what you can do for yourself. Which often kind of annoys me a bit, because it's like I blame the women thing, or I blame the carer and what you can do for yourself.

But one thing that you can do for yourself, which I think is just so important, is that you can care for yourself. And it's Arianna Huffington who says, "self-care is not a luxury, and it shouldn't be." It really shouldn't be. Try to prioritize yourself. It is so important. It is the notion of putting on your own oxygen mask before you can tend to those of others.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: Sabrina, you're up next.

SABRINA KUMAR CECCARELLI: This is what has spoken to me in the last six months since I had the opportunity to film this series on motherhood. Which is that there is so much in the zeitgeist right now around the pressure being put on parents. I think the surgeon general is warning saying that parents are in like a medical pressure, like diagnosed pressure, high situation more so than they've ever been.

And so what I would say to leaders, particularly leaders who may not be the default parent, is really, really try to educate yourself and understand the degree of what that person is going to when they log off Zoom, when they leave the office, while they're at the office.

Because it's very easy to nod along and decline a simple request that somebody might have. But to understand why they're making that request, what they're going through, the nature of what parenting is and motherhood, that it's a 24-hour job. We're averaging sleep as mothers of young kids beyond what any medical doctor would say is sufficient.

And I would just really say, treat that as seriously as you do the technical training you might offer your employees, and then you'll approach it in a way that is naturally more empathetic.

BRYAN BENJAMIN: I love it. Thank you. Eva.

EVA SALEM: Be kind to yourself, and be kind to others. And there is a foundation of understanding that we are all going through things. Add value professionally and fill their personal buckets as well.

And so I think it starts by living as you want to be treated and doing it en masse and creating a culture that you want to be a part of.

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SEAN ACKLIN GRANT: Thank you for tuning in to Learning in Action. Learning in Action is produced by Joanna Shepherd, Rachel Jackson, and me, Sean Acklin Grant. Editing and audio mix by Carol Eugene Park. If you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe.

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