Leadership on the Menu: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

In this episode, Shakeel Bharmal sits down with Mohamed (Mo) Jessa, President Emeritus and Corporate Director of Earls, an iconic Canadian restaurant brand. With a career spanning 35 years, Mo shares his journey from an entry-level kitchen position to leading the company's expansion across Canada and into the US. They discuss his early years as an immigrant teen navigating life in rural Alberta, his pivot from a planned career in medicine, and how his passion for learning and teaching shaped his leadership style. Mo's story offers valuable insights into the restaurant industry, his lasting influence on the careers of his staff, and the memorable customer experiences of millions. 

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy
Guest: Mohamed (Mo) Jessa, President Emeritus and Corporate Director of Earls 

Other ways to listen:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify Podcasts

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About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. Produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations 

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About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

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Episode Transcript 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: From my late teens to as recently as yesterday, Earls Restaurants have been part of my business and social life. Whether it was for getting a meal before a show, meeting a new client, or catching up with friends and family, there is something about Earls that just brings comfort and connection to happy memories. It's a lot like my next guest today, Mo Jessa, formerly Mohamed. It brings comfort. 

Now, it's funny because Mo is the president emeritus of Earls Restaurant Group. And he has had a fascinating journey that began when he immigrated from Tanzania to rural Alberta as a teenager. In this episode, Mo shares how this major life transition set him on a path of personal discovery and professional growth, from navigating the challenges of fitting in as a new immigrant to eventually leading one of Canada's most iconic restaurant brands. 

Mo's story is one of perseverance, continuous learning, and a deep passion for empowering others. Throughout our conversation, Mo reflects on his 35-year career at Earls, where he evolved from an entry level cook to president. He opens up about the importance of teaching, developing emotional intelligence, and balancing entrepreneurial spirit with teamwork to scale the company successfully. 

Whether you are a leader, an entrepreneur, simply curious about personal growth, or maybe you're a customer of Earls, this conversation is packed with insights you won't want to miss. Enjoy the conversation. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

Welcome to the Navigating Disruption Podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of OceanBlue Strategic, an executive coach at the Ivey Academy, and a partner with the Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking. Here, we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times, as leaders, colleagues and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people. As I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau Rivers, it's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place for hundreds or probably thousands of years, where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. 

Mo, how are you? 

MO JESSA: I'm doing great, Shakeel. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Good. Actually, I should say, so everybody calls you Mo. Your name is written Mo. But I'm looking at the little words on the screen here. And it says Mohamed. 

MO JESSA: That's right. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: You prefer Mohamed or Mo? 

MO JESSA: Everybody says Mo. And I'm so used to it that I write Mohamed formerly. But Mo is perfect. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It would be hard to unlearn Mo. But we should all learn things at times. 

MO JESSA: The reason why I can't unlearn it is my wife calls me Mohamed. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, that's good. That's good. Excellent. Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for joining me in this conversation. 

MO JESSA: My pleasure. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love having-- one of my favorite things about this podcast, actually, is it forces space for deep conversations with people that I'm very interested in getting to talk to more. And of course, we know each other. We've worked together. But how often do you get 45 minutes just to sit here and explore and talk? It doesn't happen. So part of the podcast is for me to create that opportunity for myself and my own curiosity. But it just so happens that other people are interested in listening in to these conversations. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. Listen, I would have not taken this invitation on because it wasn't even part of my plan is-- one of the things that I'm trying to do is retire from not being enough. And partly it's like, do I want to get attention? No. And so then the concept came, is like, OK, I want to give attention. And when you asked, it was like a container talking into someone that was genuinely just curious and wanted to have a good conversation. 

And then you said my son would listen to it one day and he would get a chance to just see who his father, what was he reflecting about. And I was like, oh, my goodness, there's good reasons to talk to someone who just wants to have a nice conversation and do it for a purpose like that, how could I say no? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. Awesome. I don't know whether it's by design or it just happens to be that most of the conversations I have are usually with people that are not interested in publicity or promoting themselves. Almost everyone I can think of, because if it's somebody that's looking-- I get these emails all the time. Oh, I'd love to be a guest on your podcast. I usually stay away from those. Usually, I'm interested in people that are not actually interested in promotion, but just interested in a good deep conversation. So, thank you for stepping into the unknown a little bit here. 

MO JESSA: Well, it really comes through when you ask, though, is you are genuinely interested in other human beings. And that's rare to find people to talk to that aren't doing it for any other purpose than to get to know me. And so that made me feel very comfortable, actually. And then I thought, you know what, if there's anybody that I could have a great conversation with is someone that's actually just genuine about it. There's no ulterior motive. I really think you made it possible. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you. Thank you. Well, one of the things I'd like to do at the beginning of the conversation is kind lay the context and lay the case for my listeners as to why I'm even interested in having this conversation. There's so many vectors of this. So let me lay the context. Feel free to interrupt if you want to add something. But here's the context. And I would never have said this to you. So this is the first time you're hearing it. 

First of all, we first really got to meet, although I knew of you, as we were both on a senior leadership board, a governance board for our community. You are responsible for the human resource development, the volunteer system. I was responsible for a particular geography or region in the institutions. And we really never-- I don't know if you noticed this, but we never sat beside each other at any of the quarterly meetings we had. We were always on the other side of the room. 

So I always get to see your reaction to things. But we had a connection. We did. I'm not making it up. 

MO JESSA: No, no. Right away. And you saw something and I saw something. And it's how we would listen to the proceedings. And from a point of view that we wanted to get to something that was underneath of what was being said, I could just see there was a talent there from you on bringing out issues in a way to solve them that was just not obvious to others. And that's the work that I'm involved in all the time. And so I could just see that connection. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. And then up until that point, all I really knew of you, other than that, is you were the president of Earls. So this is the next vector. I started going to Earls when I was 19 years old. I think it was very new restaurant at the time. I remember going to Granville Street in Vancouver. Earls on top. We used to go. I was a student, so really, I had not much money for more than maybe some French fries, sometimes a burger if I was willing to splurge. 

But as I grew up, as I got a job in my early career, as I took on volunteer roles, Earls was a bit of a headquarters for me. I have a very good friend, previous guest on my podcast, you would probably know him as well, he is the president of Hetek, Amyn Bhimani. And he and I were very good friends. And we used to be very interested in leadership and business as we were both in university. 

And then when we both graduated and started working, we had this tradition that one night a week we would go to Earls, we would sit, we would have a meal, we would talk about the issues of the week, we would hold court, we would evaluate customer service and the selling skills of the various staff. So it really became a headquarters. And it sounds funny now, but it became a big part of my early adult years. 

MO JESSA: Amazing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So that is a second curiosity. I know you as the president of Earls, and Earls was a big part of the influence in my life and studying the customer experience and all of that. And then I'm very interested in now to learn, at least in the last couple of years, that in your role as president of Earls, you also embarked on coach training. You got certified as an executive coach while you were president of Earls. And that is awesome because, of course, I'm a coach as well. And so there's all these things I'm interested in from learning more about you. And so this is the context for the conversation. 

MO JESSA: I love it. Yeah. What a nice three verticals that we're just all so passionate about. Earls, coaching, people. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: For sure. Yeah. OK. So let's dive in. So I have a few questions I always ask all my guests just to get the ball rolling. And really, the first question just is really kind of current state, how would you describe your role in the world, both professionally as well as in any other forms of service that you're involved in? 

MO JESSA: Yeah, currently, it's a moment. It's a change moment. It's a beginning of something new and an ending of something old. It's quite a transition time for me. Because earlier this year, around April, I stepped down as the president. I created a succession plan with our founder, Stan Fuller. And the idea was, as opposed to any of the other decades of leadership changes, how could we create a succession plan that elevates the company and makes the next person more successful than even I was? How do you create continuity and elevation and inspiration from something that is a leadership change? 

So many companies go through this where they'll have a leadership change at an executive level. And then you hear about people having to come back and run the companies over again if you don't do it properly. And so part of this idea was to do it in a way that makes a difference. And so I just created it. My brother, twin brother, was the president of Joey, which is another freaky story because the two twin brothers were running sister brands for the same family and all that. You can't make that stuff up. Just, truth is stranger than fiction sometimes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It's true. 

MO JESSA: In any case, he had done something similar. And so what I said to Stan is, we can do this where I'll stick around as a mentor to the future president and the executive team. The idea is to limit any kind of turnover, to always be an advisor. And so I gave myself a title called President emeritus. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Excellent. 

MO JESSA: And so I'm always the president. And every time I go into Earls, I go, I'm still the president. And I want all of the attention of a president. And they laugh. But I also sit on the board of Earls, where the Fuller family is-- they're an iconic brand that owns Earls, Joey's, Cactus, Beach House, Local. They have other investments as well too. So it's a complex business. 

And I sit on the board of this company that also plays a role of an advisor. And even just the guidance and from experience to the leaders that are currently running it. So that's what I'm up to right now. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So how long were you there? How long were you at Earls? 

MO JESSA: 35 years. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: 35 years? OK, so there's so much I want to know. OK, I don't know how this is going to be enough time, but what I'm really curious about so we're about the same age. So can you just draw me the story or tell me the story of how you got to from whatever it was, adolescence, 18, 19, to the point you're at now where you've spent 35 years running kind of one of the most iconic restaurant brands in the country? Tell me that story if you can. 

MO JESSA: Oh, it's such an interesting way to look back at a 35-year career. And I recently had to do that because part of my retirement was people wanted to know this. And have you heard that story, the old Taoist story in China, where there's a farmer and then there's a village? And the farmer, he has the stallion, and he takes the stallion one day and decides to sell it. And the village comes out and says, why would you sell your stallion? He's the most beautiful stallion and all that. 

And the farmer's response to everything was always, who knows if it's a good thing or a bad thing? Only the higher purpose knows, right? And so then the stallion got sold and it was at the best price. And it was amazing. He got a windfall of money and all of that. And people were thinking, how amazing that is. He sold his stallion. And won first prize and all of that. And so he was competing with the stallion for a farm fair. And he won first prize. 

And because the stallion got so famous, the thieves also found out about it. And then the stallion got stolen. And of course, the village said oh, you should have never done that. You should have never taken him. So this is a story of whatever happens in life, is it a good thing or a bad thing? You never know. But there is a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you look at life back in the rear view mirror, you can see that every challenge and opportunity, to a certain extent, became the golden moment. 

And I honestly discovered Earls at probably the most, I think, depressed time. I was in a real self-identity crisis that I was going through. And it all started because I'd moved from East Africa at the age of 13. And, I'll tell you, my parents actually just walked into the room one day, and they said, by Friday, we're going to Canada. And I had friends, and I had a soccer team, and I had a girlfriend, and there's so many things. 

And it's like, if the villagers were coming out at this point, they would say, oh my God, this is going to ruin the boy. He's just trying to figure things out. And then I come to Canada. I land in Airdrie, Alberta. I lived in a farm town where my twin brother and I were the only kids of color in the high school. And the kids used to take October off because they had to go harvesting, and there was snow on the ground. And I honestly didn't know any of this. 

And yet, what had happened is, because of the British colonial system in East Africa, I was almost two grades ahead of where they put me. They put me in grade 8, but I knew how to do algebra and trigonometry, and kids were just learning how to add and subtract fractions back then. And so it wasn't long before I became the smartest kid in class. And so everybody wanted to have me help me with their homework and all of that. 

And a lot of people have stories of discrimination, especially in a community where you're the only ones of people of color. But I didn't experience it. I was invited to all the parties. People liked me. I had all the attention. And I graduated at the top of my class. I was in the newspaper accepting an award and my life was set, Shakeel. I was the smartest kid. I was going to go into premed, as everybody would have expected, to go in and take and be a doctor. 

And I was going to have a life of service and contribution, the smartest kid. There was nothing wrong. And then by my second year of university, I knew my dream was absolutely crushed. My GPA was at 2.4. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, interesting. 

MO JESSA: And I was trying to figure out how to work harder, but I realized that all the way through high school, just because of that no work ethic, I didn't have to work very hard. I didn't even know how to ask for help. I didn't know how to get through university and operate at a level of the top 1% And as hard as I tried, I just didn't have the skills. And the time was running out, at third year of university fourth year of university. What is my backup plan? And with that, honestly a crisis of like, who am if I'm not the smartest kid? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. 

MO JESSA: Who am I going to be? I don't have a backup plan. I joined Earls. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Interesting. OK. Can I pause there for a second? Because there's so much in what you've shared so far. I look at your journey. You were actually in East Africa. Obviously, there was a lot of turmoil in East Africa in the early '70s. There's lots talk about that. Your family stayed through that. And it sounds like you actually had a pretty good life, I'm guessing in Tanzania? 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, right? You had a pretty good life. You were enjoying yourself. You had friends. You had social activity. You're plucked out of East Africa. Didn't want to go. You're dropped in the middle of Alberta. Not even Calgary, not even Edmonton, but Airdrie. But you still found a way to make it a positive experience. But you were advanced academically, so that helped you. 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: But it sounds like you found things pretty easy, like you were able to coast. 

MO JESSA: Absolutely. In fact, what could be like-- well, moving from East Africa was the most worst thing that could happen. Turned out to be a great thing because I was the smartest kid and I was all this, like friends and upbringing with popularity and social status and smart, and identity that was amazing, that I got as a gift of just landing in Canada that I had no idea about. 

And then it actually turned out to be my biggest opportunity because that coasting actually was the reason why I couldn't get through university at the level that I wanted to. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right? So you go from, OK, it all turned out, everything's good. I'm coasting. I'm popular, top of my class, ready to go to med school. But the fact that you didn't actually have to work hard through school meant that you weren't prepared to work hard in university. And by that point, you're all caught up with everybody else. And so then you're saying, oh my God, crisis. I'm not ready for this. I can't make it work. I can't figure out what to do. And so you leave med school and then you enter the restaurant industry. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. And it was honestly a job that my twin brother and I both took on a job to earn just enough money to buy a car and have some fun. I actually wanted to run away from my problems. And I just wanted to buy a car and enjoy life for a bit, try to figure out, maybe open up my own business. I was just exploring other things. 

But from a real point of view, I didn't know who I was at the time. And it had to be rebuilt. But as soon as I joined Earls, another new thing happened. It's like, oh, wait a second, now these people are way more interested in me being successful than even I am. And they were, actually, the way they're teaching me this thing is like, we see something in you. And I don't know what they see, but they see something and they want to invest and all of that. 

And next thing you know, it's like they say, well, you've done six months of this. We're going to actually allow you to now teach the next cook to come in and learn what you've learned. The moment I started teaching others how to do something, all of a sudden the spark came up. It's like, wow, I know why I've always succeeded academically and all of that. At some point, the why for me has to always be, will I teach it to someone? 

And I think the medical field, because of an aura of helping people, but not in the way that I wanted to help people. I didn't want to fix them. I actually wanted to teach and empower them and all that. And so, through a crisis, all of a sudden, I find my reason to exist. I find my purpose. I truly enjoy teaching people and fall in love with that idea. And so immediately, I became a certified journeyman chef. 

And I went into school. And I would read every night culture of cooking and the history of cooking. And I come back to work and I teach. And so you can imagine with that kind of passion for what I wanted to learn so that I could teach it to others how quickly I moved up. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It's so fascinating because your drive and your motivation wasn't to become the best chef. Your drive was to learn everything you could to become the best teacher of chefs. 

MO JESSA: That's right. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Phenomenal. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. That's right. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, this conversation is all about you. But I can't help it. And I know all my training says it shouldn't be about me. It should be just curious about you. But I just feel so much kind of connection, because when I think about me, I wanted to go to med school too when I was in high school. And I didn't know exactly why, but I felt like it was something to do with helping others because I also enjoyed teaching, coaching, mentoring, all that stuff from a very young age. 

Give me young people that were falling off the track. Let me cultivate them and coach them. And that was what I loved to do. So I said, OK, I'll become a doctor. I had the same experience at university. Nothing prepared me for the type of work required in medical school. And I got really bored looking in microscopes in the first couple of years. So, set that aside. 

But my dad bought a business. And he bought a business in a really awful, rundown part of town with very high poverty, a lot of social issues. And he said, here, happy birthday, on my 18th birthday, you're running this place. 

MO JESSA: Oh, wow. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And I was pretty upset about it at first because I wanted to go get a summer job in a suit and tie like some of my friends were doing. But I worked in this gas station. But then I discovered that all these young kids living in the neighborhood that are having really rough times at home with their families and sometimes domestic violence, alcoholism, they would hang around. I would hire them. And I got to coach, mentor, teach them, and give them a purpose. And that was the true joy. 

And so business became my venue to help people develop, grow, learn. And it sounds like a very similar kind of path of discovery that you went on. 

MO JESSA: Oh, exactly. And I think a lot of people that are sharing this call with us probably can recollect some kind of a moment of truth that they've experienced like that. It's not what you're doing, but to have the gift of actually figure out why you're doing it. And once you figure out that why, then it becomes an alignment of not the activity or what you think is society's version of what you should be doing, but you can actually express it through any kind of a career that sometimes feels unconventional to what you might have set out to do. 

It has become the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life. A dream job. I can't even imagine what it would look like for me, a doctor now. In fact, I look at doctors and I go, thank God I'm not one. Not to say that it's a bad-- but it would be misalignment for me. I love people, I love teaching people. I like making things possible for people, empowering people, unleashing them from constraints that they have. And so it's been honestly a dream come true. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. Amazing. So you kind of came up through the kitchen and the menus and the innovations that happened there, which is obviously a huge part of the restaurant experience. And I know from being a customer that that was the best part about going to Earls. You always knew the menu was great. There was always innovations in the menu. 

I had my staple dishes I liked. But there was always something new. So that's cool. You came up through that world. When did you transition from being in that side of the business to being in an overall leadership? How did that come about? 

MO JESSA: That's a great question, honestly. Another interesting inflection point of crisis. So now I'm a chef. I'm an executive chef of the company. I move up every five years. I'm now running the entire kitchen operations of the company. And then, at the same time, I actually get married. My twin brother gets married. We all move into the same house because we think that that's a logical next step, which was the worst decision we made. 

And then within a year, we've not only split apart, we're not even talking to each other. And I lost my twin brother in my life. And five or so years go by, honestly, he would go to a party, I would actually purposely not go. If I heard that he was walking on this side of the street, I wouldn't go and walk on that side. I had nothing to do with my twin brother at the time. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. That's hard. 

MO JESSA: so then he calls me five years later and he said, hey, you know what, I took a personal development course. And I've just realized out of just some self-reflection and some self-awareness that I caused this. And it was because of something that I was resenting you for through childhood that is so apparent to me now that I wanted this to actually happen, that it's given me freedom to actually choose back, that I want my brother back in my life again. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. 

MO JESSA: I want our kids to-- oh, by the way, both had kids by this time. I want our kids to have each other. They should know their cousins. And I want you back. And I remember, actually, I didn't even answer the call. I mean, I was listening to the voicemail. I didn't even call him back. I was like, this is going to wear off like everything else wears off. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. 

MO JESSA: And he persisted, and he called again. And one time, he called me right at head office and I said, hey, thank you for calling me and trying so hard. You're my twin brother. I can forgive you. But you made so many other people angry and you've hurt so many other people. So make a list of all the people that you actually-- in my life right now that are angry and frustrated and hurt by all of this and get an apology from them. 

If they forgive you, I forgive you. And he did it. He went person after person. He would meet with my wife. Then he went and met with my in-laws, everybody in the family and all that, invited us all to Christmas. Somehow, he got it done, right? And what I realized is there are tools that are out there for human beings to create possibilities that were not in my toolkit. And he had gone and learned them. 

And I said, wow, show me where did you learn this. And he gave me access to the kind of coaching and phenomena. I think there's so many tools for human development capacities in the last 15 years that exist that are underutilized in business that I wanted to go learn them. So I started on this journey of self-development and learning about leadership and learning about conversations, the power of language, all of these tools. 

And then I came to work. And I thought, actually, it's not just the kitchen that needs this. I can make a difference for the entire company. And for the first time, a back of the house guy had the aspiration to say, oh no, now that the vice president of operations has left, it's the second in command position that the founder-CEO had, the closest thing, I applied for the job. 

I think even in Earls people were shocked. Is the chef now going to become-- what does he know about the front of the house? Can he be out there with the service team and all of that? And once again, it's like, if you have someone that believes in you and you have the skills and you're taught the skills. Stan believed in me. And he defied every other, I guess, challenge that he was probably listening to from why he should pick someone else. 

And he said, no, you're going to be the next vice president of operations. You're going to run the whole operations of the company. And so that was the first time I made that leap. And honestly, it was unprecedented in the company. It almost set the trajectory for me to actually do things that always felt like a little bit impossible. Hence, when I became the president, it shouldn't surprise you that it was also, I was competing with someone and all of that, and it was using the tools and techniques that I learned to say, why can I make a difference that's the right thing for the company that Stan had to buy into. And there he was again. He believed in me more than I even sometimes believed in myself. And he gave me the shot. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. And so, obviously, you can't be president without business acumen and understanding the nuts and bolts of how a penny is made, a penny is earned. But I'm interpreting now, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm picking up the thread that your focus on helping, teaching, being people-oriented, learning the tools to get more self-aware and help others become more self-aware, that that was your differentiator in winning all these leadership roles. Is that accurate? 

MO JESSA: It's accurate. I would also add my voracious appetite for learning. I went and got my management certificate from eCornell on hospitality management. If I didn't know how to understand reading a balance sheet, I went in and learned it. If I didn't understand what the difference is between a balance sheet and a cash flow statement, I went in and learned it. If I didn't know what the hidden value of ROI was versus what you were producing in EBITDA, I went and learned it. 

And so there's this kind of voracious appetite that not only did I learn it for myself, I would always say, I'm going to teach my team how to analyze it. So it was so motivating for me. I would honestly sit with a chalkboard. And I would say, listen, look at what I learned about what you look for in a balance sheet and why Earls' balance sheet is going to be amazing if we do these things. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. I mean, so I can imagine the people that worked with you, for you in the industry, they're really lucky because they have somebody that, if they didn't go to university or go to school, they're actually getting taught a practical business education, because you had the joy of teaching and sharing it. And that's the environment you created for the people that you worked with. 

MO JESSA: Most people that come into the restaurant business are actually the ones that are saying, I don't like sitting in a classroom. And so there's a traditional way that we teach people that sometimes just doesn't work for a group of people, but they thrive in the restaurant business because it's on your feet, practical, working with people, and then learning to actually use the techniques of a cash flow statement to actually operate a business or maximize performance that they've been held accountable to. And so they become motivated to learn the same skills that maybe an MBA learns, but just in a way that we can find that's way more appropriate for the way they learn. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. It's so interesting because you're articulating something I've learned, especially over the last few years, is there's almost infinite ways of learning, infinite ways of learning. There's the classroom. There's the self-reflection. There's do your own research. There's the work for a company and work for people that enjoy teaching. Infinite ways. 

In fact, there's really no excuse for not learning, right? Because there's so many opportunities for it. Back in the '80s and '90s, when we were starting our careers, when you thought about learning, you thought about taking a course, sitting in a classroom, getting a certificate. That was basically what learning was. And it's evolved so much over that time. 

MO JESSA: 100% agree with you. And to the extent that business uses that as a comment that we can make, to anybody that's listening, that is interested in what made Earls successful is we provide access to people to education at a very high level, but not in the classical ways that people think. And I think that that's one of our secrets of success. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Amazing. So when you started with Earls 35 years ago, how many restaurants were there in Canada? 

MO JESSA: I think there was only like, let's say less than 10. And it might be not quite accurate or whatever, because the concept started in '82 and I started in '88. So there was only six years to grow the company. And I think it might have been 12 restaurants, but maybe I'm adding too many. But I've never done that math. And so it was a really small company, like a fledgling kind of a startup. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. I mean, I remember in '88 in Vancouver, and maybe I'm off, I remember two, maybe three locations. I remember one in downtown. I remember one in North Vancouver. 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Tin Palace. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Those are the two I remember. So how many are there now, at the point that you became president? At the point you got promoted to president emeritus, how many restaurants are there now? 

MO JESSA: Now there are 70. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. OK. So you were there for all that growth. 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Where do we begin? Talk to me. What's the biggest thing you've learned from running an organization or being part of an organization that grows from 10 locations to 70 locations? And it's entirely a people business, right? 

MO JESSA: 100%. There's two kinds of businesses in the restaurant world. You can imagine there's the franchise model, where, really, the head office or the corporate is providing marketing support to the operators, like giving advice on how to manage. But they're not really involved in people decisions or anything like that. When you're running a corporate entity, every location is owned by the corporate. You are actually in charge of developing the people to run those things. 

So we're way more of a people development company than any franchise model. And I was in that world. You could only grow as fast as not the money you had, you can only grow as fast as the people you had. And we just believe that. That's where the genius of Stan Fuller really showed early in the development of Earls. Earls grew from his father. His father actually started in started in A&W franchise very early on. And he built it up to 100 restaurants. 

But in the '80s, it actually all crumbled where the entire controlled foods had to be sold, and the family ended up with just like five or six restaurants that were just-- at 50 years old, Bus Fuller had to start over again. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. 

MO JESSA: So he actually brought in Stan Fuller, his oldest son. And I give Stan for creating the first ever culture of Earls. I mean, he wrote a inspired book of operating manual that we called "The Cookbook." And in it, I think the core philosophy was it's your business. It was like this empowerment culture of I will only have people working beside me that are interested in equally being successful with me. 

So when I got hired, I was called a partner. So there's a front of the house partner. And they would get hired, and Stan would say to them, I'm leasing you your section. This is how you're going to increase the income of your section. This is how you're going to make sure you maximize it. Because if your section does well, I do well, so we all have to do well. And you are my partner. 

We were not called employees. We were not called staff. There was no language like that. Even in the kitchen, I was called a kitchen partner. And it was also a really inspired guy named Chuck Curry that was the chef. And he came from a military background. And so we would iron our jackets and spit shine our shoes. And it was like this level of pride that we were going to do something. But the seminal lesson of it's your business showed up when I was a dishwasher and the dishwasher broke. 

And so I went to the front at the line, and I looked at my sous chef and I said the dishwasher is broken. And he said, OK, well, what are you going to do it? I said, well, I'm telling you the dishwasher is broken. And he said, yeah, but it's your business. What the hell does that mean? He goes, well, if it was your business, what would you do with your dishwasher? 

Well, I guess I would call a maintenance guy. What, you want me to look in the yellow pages? Back then, that's where we would go. Yeah, look in the yellow pages. And honestly, I remember sitting there going, oh my God. Yeah, OK, I have to find the right maintenance guy that has to come in. I had to get this dishwasher fixed because it was my business. And that never, never left me as a lesson. Empowerment, entrepreneurial culture is what Stan had built. 

And I would credit that competitive, entrepreneurial, opportunistic, self-empowering, self-reliance culture at Earls for the entire growth up until 2008, 2009, when I took over a president, where I think there was a shift that needed my influence to change something. But hopefully, that gives you an idea of how successful Earls was in its ability to actually spark people to be very, very entrepreneurial and creative and empowered. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. And so it's interesting because that would have been the '80s. 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So and those were ideas ahead of their time in the '80s. 

MO JESSA: 100%. I don't think that man Stan gets enough credit for what he's invented. We read books about people. I actually always encourage Stan to write a book, because I think what he created was today an iconic brand. But it all started from that one cookbook that he created, which was a really intense philosophy. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. So what's interesting is when I was in university in those days, at around the same time, after leaving kind of the sciences behind and going down the business path and being exposed to thought leaders in organizational behavior and professors that were amazing in that area as well as then marketing, I kind of landed on this area that I thought was going to be my calling in business, which is figuring out what customers need, what they know they need, and also what they don't know they need, figuring that out, and then designing an organizational system with the right people and talent and motivating them to continually find out what they need, find out what they need that they don't know, and deliver against it. 

So that was kind of in my head my mantra, my calling, and I would say my career, up until the point right now, is driven based on those two principles. 

MO JESSA: Amazing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: If I think back now to my experience at Earls, I didn't know this at the time, but essentially, I was experiencing that as a customer there. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I didn't know that's what was happening behind the scenes, but essentially, that was what I was experiencing. Because I think about the servers or the partners or whoever it that was serving, whatever the name was, they had a way of anticipating what I wanted or needed, would make recommendations without me knowing that that's what I wanted. And I remember one particular day, somebody walked away, and my friend Emma and I were looking at her and saying, that's exactly what I wanted, but I didn't know. 

And he goes, yeah, I know. Me too. And that was the biggest bill we ever spent at Earls, was that day that he anticipated all these things. And so that was in action at play. I was experiencing it as a customer. And it's kind of my code now, the way I operate. That's very cool. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. Amazing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's very cool. OK, so that's really amazing to see that growth. So here's what the picture I've put together. And maybe it's your secret to success as a leader that you've fallen into. Maybe it's the design for your book if you ever write one. But here's what I'm hearing. 

Relentless passion for teaching others, a continued curiosity, learning about the things you don't know, just keep going, keep learning, keep learning. Treat people like owners. Treat them like partners, which doesn't mean just treat them well, it also means kind of put things on their shoulders to solve problems that they wouldn't normally solve because they're owners. I'm picking up those three things. What am I missing? 

MO JESSA: Well said, well said. And so you must be thinking, well, what happened when you became president? In some ways, your biggest strength can become your biggest opportunity. And it's like overused. What is that entrepreneurial culture do to the company? And so when I became the president, what was happening is we needed to grow in Ontario. We needed to go to the US. 

And the idea had to be, and we learned that from our sister companies that, in order to be successful in a new province or a new country, you have to send people there that are going to actually be the voice of your culture, right? And so to the extent that the culture is going to be developed for a restaurant in Ontario or the US, it will all depend on the ability of the management team. So you have to send the best of the best there. 

Now, what would happen is that the best of the best already were doing great in Western Canada. And so an entrepreneurial competitive culture, there's no reason for them to actually take a chance and go there unless there's something that I could provide that was in it for them. And sometimes, somebody would put up their hand, but then nobody else wanted to help them send their people, or in the sister brands, they were actually getting even servers to move out to different parts of the country to actually go and create the culture. 

Because the moment you open in a new country or a new environment where Earls isn't, your best day has to be the first day. You can't grow into it. The brand is so reflective of how you operate that you have to support it. In a competitive environment, that just wasn't happening. And so here's my challenge, Shakeel. What ended up happening is I realized everybody had to change their mindset and make Earls more important than themselves, is the team more important than the individual. 

And it was actually quite a shift. Remember, we're very successful. A classic Jim Collins issue where a good company has a tremendous problem becoming a great company because of the inertia of everything is working. Why would you do it? And so, partly as the president, what I had to convince people is that teamwork actually matters. And so what would that mean? I would have to say that have to lose the subgame to win the big game. 

I will give you an example of a soccer team. If we lost the game 5-4 in soccer, the offense was like really happy because they scored five goals, because they were getting bonused on the number of goals that they were actually scoring. And they thought that they actually, even though the team lost, the offense won. But the defense would walk away being dejected. They had four goals scored against them and they didn't get their bonus because there was too many goals that got scored against them, right? 

And what I said is that, ultimately, Earls has to be happy when we win 1-0. It's not about everybody maximizing their subgames. It's like if Earls wins, everybody wins. And so I had to go after compensation systems that made Earls' EBITDA the highest value. I had read earlier that the fastest way to change a culture and bring in teamwork is to actually start with the executive team. So culture eats strategy for breakfast. 

And I would just dive into, what is this thing, that salient thing that people call culture? And I'll tell you for your listeners, one of the best examples I have is from a book that I read called Conscious Business by Fred Kaufman. And in it, he had an example of what culture is. Culture is what people do when there's a crisis or when nobody is watching. People think it's easy to articulate. But watch what happens when there's a crisis and you'll know what the culture of the company is, right? 

And so he talks about these four monkeys that were put in a cage by researchers. And they put up a ladder. And then above the ladder, they had a bunch of bananas, right? And the very first time a monkey went and tried to climb a ladder, they just hosed down all the monkeys with cold water. And so the monkeys were bewildered and confused, and they were thinking, what the hell is just happening to us, or whatever. 

Eventually, the monkey would go again, another one, and they would try to climb the ladder. And everybody would get hosed down. So you can imagine what ended up happening, is the monkeys realized very quick, nobody should be going up the ladder. And it didn't take hosing. Every time another monkey tried to go on the ladder, all the other monkeys were like, don't go up on the ladder. That's just not good. 

The most interesting part of the story I found was, then they started introducing new monkeys into the cage. And even the new monkey would go, why can't we just go get bananas up the ladder? And all the monkeys would go, no, that's not OK. There was a point where there were all new monkeys that were never hosed down, but no monkey ever climbed up the ladder. That is culture. It is hidden. 

Nobody knows why people do things a certain way and everybody does it that way. That was the entrepreneurial culture we had, is that you didn't even know how we were self-sabotaging teamwork, but we were doing it everywhere. And so, honestly, it takes a lot because then you have to really engineer, OK, we're going to change the culture to teamwork. And it started with compensation. And then I built a decision-making framework that included consensus. We had to decide as a team. 

Nobody could make their own individual decisions that benefited themselves. And so much of it actually became about learning and development of how to operate as a team rather than individuals. That became sort of my obsession for five years, continually bringing that into Earls. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it so you recognize that you had to disrupt self. I don't know if you've been exposed, or I've just recently been re-exposed to the innovator's dilemma. 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right? This idea that the people that were the most innovative end up getting so wed to their ways of success that they can't change or re-innovate because they will lose all the great things they have. And then somebody comes along and picks up a little customer that they weren't serving really well, by choice, and they can't combat them. And they're happy that they've got them, but they can't combat them. And then, all of a sudden, they're irrelevant and obsolete and it's too late. 

So you anticipated, as you were expanding, that while the entrepreneurial culture was working for you, what worked for you in the past was not what was going to get you to where you needed to be. 

MO JESSA: Absolutely. And you could see that-- I always look back and say, Steve Jobs was in the combination. I had Stan Fuller. Seriously competitive. It's your business, Mo. Self-interest. You've got to promote. And then I'm like, teamwork. But you couldn't pick one or the other. You had to find a beautiful middle ground. 

And sometimes, you need these opposing forces in the company to actually find that. Otherwise, it would have gone too far on the teamwork side. And everybody's like oh, well, I've tried to do the best I could for the team. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I love it. That's one of my favorite mantras-- holding opposites. That's where the power is, holding opposites. 

MO JESSA: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right? It's not one or the other. It's actually both at the same time. 

MO JESSA: The secret of our success was not me coming up with the teamwork idea, it was having the opposition where somebody was holding me to the fire and saying, no, but we need results in this area too. It's like individual accountability. How are you going to achieve that if everything is teamwork? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. I think about so many of our challenges in the world today and problems today, are when people pick one extreme or the other extreme. And now you've got polarization. And it's the one leader, whether it be an organization or a country or a team that says, no, no, no, it's not one or the other. It's actually both. We've got to figure out the way to bring it all together. Opposite forces coming together will actually make us successful. Where did that inspiration come to you? How did you figure that out? 

MO JESSA: I think it's, honestly, I'm starting to learn that in reflection, it's just being studious and always being enough. Somehow, I had enough of an education and self-awareness through the coaching and all of the leadership development tools to always learn a little bit to step back and look at what was happening. And I would say to young kids or anybody that's listening too, is I actually think it's one of the most critical skills of business today is to learn emotional mastery and self-awareness, to be able to just honestly step back. 

And you will see way more than you will if you're just in the forest trying to make it happen and relying on whatever skills that you have you think you're talented with. Self-awareness is a critical skill for success for any leader in the future. And I think it's becoming even more important in the next age. And so that's one thing that we're practicing at Earls. 

I mean, I go on all these tangents. And I just actually put my team just before I retired on a six-week intensive mental fitness program. And it was like, how do you actually step back, learn to step back in meetings? How do you actually learn to become self-aware of what you're actually doing? How do you disconnect so that you can see the broader picture? And we adopted a program where we held each other accountable for six weeks in a boot camp of mental fitness just so I could build that kind of resilience. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Amazing, amazing. Wow. Gosh, I feel like given what you've done over the last 35 years, what you've learned, what you've applied, it's a shame to me that you stepped down from a leadership role because we need more leaders like you, right? We need more leaders like you. 

But maybe, and I don't know for sure, is that, perhaps like me, I find my joy in actually helping leaders find that path, figure out what their kind of things holding them back are, and move beyond it. Maybe that's your future a little bit? 

MO JESSA: When I retired, one thing I wanted to retire from is not being enough. And so, that was like-- it's like this constant pursuit of feeling good if I'm actually achieving something and all of that. And so I promised myself as soon as I stop, when you hit your financial number, there's a whole bunch of things that become possible for you. I have a lot of choice in my life right now. Earls has given me this gift that I can take the time. 

And so partly, it's like not rushing into it and allow the world to call for what it needs. You can see where this is all going. Me showing up on the podcast. I am pent up to share my lessons. I want to give back and all of that. Ideally, not for profit, for people that need it. I think about going to countries where people don't have this knowledge. But I think that generally in an industry, business can be a force of good. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Absolutely. 

MO JESSA: Can make a big difference. And if you have someone like me that can come in and show you how to architect. What did Clifton and Venice find recently, I mean, just a few years ago, I read a study where only 25% of the population that work is engaged. 50% of the people say, I show up to just do barely enough to keep my job. 70% of the people say, I could probably do more at work. 

We have a crisis of people feeling empowered and fulfilled at work, to the extent that we have so much knowledge of how to create a better work environment so everybody feels engaged. Why isn't it getting used? And so I actually think there are tools. We are focused too much in leadership development on creating insights through courses or whatever. I actually think that there is time to now to actually get into showing behaviors and practices that are actions that people have to learn. 

And I think it can be taught to leaders. And I see myself in that area somewhere down the road after I take this break, just showing people what to implement to actually create those differences that can make people feel amazing at work. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, speaking of, and I just happen to know this from our separate conversation, you have some exciting things coming up in the fall. Tell my listeners what you're doing in the fall as part of the transition. 

MO JESSA: Well, I'm excited about this because one of the things-- I'd never taken more than two weeks. And even taking two weeks off a year, it was on vacation, taking phone calls and all of that. And so always had to be there, more for me than the people needed me. And so one of the disciplines of retiring from not being good enough is, can I be good enough just not doing anything? And so I sometimes I get up and go if I end up watching Netflix all day, I'll have to say that that was my day. And it doesn't always have to be telling Shakeel and others what I'm up to. 

But at the same time, there was this kind of-- let me go check out what it's like to be away for 30 days or 60 days or whatever. And then my wife came up with this idea and she goes, I've always wanted to do this kind of yoga retreat. I said, what are you talking about? She goes, well, why don't we go do a 500-hour yoga certification course in the Himalayas, where it's like a very, very not bougie holiday. You're eating vegetarian food and you're doing yoga from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM, 30 days. 

And I was like, oh my God. It'll be like, leave my phone out. It'll disconnect me. And I'll be there for 7 days a week, 30 days in a row. And so that I'm going to go do that from August 27 till I come back on October 7. And honestly, I can't tell you how scared I am, but at the same time, just exhilarated that I'm trying this out. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That is amazing. That is amazing. I'm very, very envious of you because that sounds like a fantastic kind of experience. And so much personal reflection time. So much kind of mental and physical wellness all wrapped up there. 

And might I say, there's also some opposites happening here. Just to poke fun a little bit. You're going away to release from everything. Don't have to prove anything to anybody. Lots of yoga, lots of reflection. But you get that certificate at the end of the program. You get this certificate that you can put on your wall and you can show people and say, look what I've accomplished. I'm poking fun completely, but it is funny, right? 

MO JESSA: I so love that. Honestly. Just see, it's so deep in us. And so what if I was doing it for none of it, is the question. And I think it's going to be a battle for me in loving myself, being OK with myself just the way I am. Not looking for external validation is my next battleground. And the moment I actually find little elevations in this area that it's not for me, it's got to be for others, I actually find a new purpose in life and new ways of giving and all of that. And so it's actually becoming quite a journey that I want to conquer. It's going to be part of my self-actualization, is to not be-- it has anything to do with me. It has to be with what is needed. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Fantastic. Well, I was poking fun on that idea. But I think that is the reality is-- and personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think that this, again, it's a holding opposites kind of mentality is figure out what is your incentive to do the right things, either for yourself or the world. To me, it's no different than the Apple Watch. If I pay attention to my activities and my rings and my calories and what I'm burning, I spend that much more time in exercise in a day. 

I care about the certification I get from my watch that says, hey, you did it today, right? But it incensed me to do the right thing. So I personally don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I think it's very cool what you're doing. 

MO JESSA: Well said. Well said. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I can't believe our time is gone. I try to target 40 minutes for a conversation. We're already well over that. So I'm going to bring us to a close because you've given lots of great advice. I usually like to end with your advice to leaders, but you've already given that. Learn about self-awareness. Find the tools to do that. I'm going to end with a couple of lightning round questions, really fast questions. 

MO JESSA: Sounds good. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Actually, I'm going to give you a bonus because there's one I'm just curious about. What's your favorite dish at Earls? 

MO JESSA: Oh, it's the Cajun chicken. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: The Cajun chicken. 

MO JESSA: It's been there since I started. And I was always so relentless about getting it perfect that it's the one that I think about the most. But if I'm craving something, it'll be a Cajun chicken with a side of fettuccine Alfredo. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh my gosh. That is my favorite dish as well. 

MO JESSA: Is it? Honestly, isn't it the best? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: But it wasn't originally on the menu. 

MO JESSA: No. No. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: My brother told me to order it. And I got it ordered. And then eventually, it showed up on the menu. 

MO JESSA: Oh, and the little Cajun spice mixes in with the little Alfredo sauce? It's just a work of art. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: There you go. Cajun chicken. Fettuccine. Blackened Cajun chicken. Fettuccine. Fettuccine Alfredo, right? 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And you toss it together. It's fantastic. Awesome. That's great. If you could identify a historical figure that you could have a meal with, who would it be? 

MO JESSA: I think it's the greats. It's the group that I would want at my dinner table. And I haven't honestly thought about this, but what's coming up for me is Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Martin Luther, these people that were actually beyond themselves. They could say to people, I have a dream, and create something like that. Doesn't exist in the planet and we're going to go get it. Or Gandhi saying, we can actually achieve freedom without having to shed any kind of violence. 

Or Nelson Mandela, after he came out of prison, it's so inspiring for me that he wanted love, not fear and hate, to be part of the history of a country that was just releasing apartheid. I think I would want to learn from them is like, how do you control your emotions and the instincts that you have and the urges for revenge and the hurt feelings and all of that and still adopt-- I think it's actually-- I think I aspire to be that human being that I can always do the right thing. And so those are the people I would want. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome, fantastic. That's great. Can I come? 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: If you have them over for dinner, I want to come for that dinner. And then mentioned binging on Netflix. That's kind of my guilty pleasure from time to time. Late at night, I'll be on my computer working away, and some binging. What's a binge-worthy show that you've watched? 

MO JESSA: Oh, God, I get into-- so I'm watching The Bear right now, which is-- 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I was to ask you about that. That's a whole other conversation. OK, tell me why you like The Bear. 

MO JESSA: Oh, my God. Because the guy actually puts a cartouche, an actual real thing. And when Carmy is actually cutting, it's his hand. When you see the celery on the knife, that's him actually cutting. And it's so real to what the culture of the kitchen is like and what we struggle with and how intense it is. But they actually really stay true to the culinary techniques and they're not pretending. 

And a lot of kitchen cooking shows, especially movies, are not real to what's actually happening. It's too romanticized. And The Bear captures it. I also like the storylines of the human development of what they struggle with and how human beings sabotage themselves. And so it's coaching, human development, and cooking all at once. The best, the one that I recommend to everybody is, I think it's a show called Drops of God. 

My team is going to be laughing if they ever listen to this podcast because the Drops of God is, well, actually, I won't tell you much about it other than-- 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I'm going to find it. OK, don't tell me. 

MO JESSA: You will never eat a strawberry the same way again. You will never smell a vegetable the same way, or coffee. It'll just change your life because it's just so intense about sensory experience. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, OK. Drops of God. I'm going to add that to my list. I love that you talked about The Bear, because I was going to ask you if you'd seen that if we had more time. It's actually a family show. It's a show that we will watch together. 

MO JESSA: Yeah? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It is, for all the reasons you just described. My son works at a really nice restaurant as well. 

MO JESSA: Oh, amazing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So we get to learn a lot about the restaurant that he's working at. And so when we watch the show, it's fascinating. And he brings home stories of conflicts with this person in the kitchen, and the problems that the owner is trying to solve, and the experience in the restaurant that they try to create. So watching The Bear is a fascinating exploration of all of that, plus the human condition and families-- the struggles and the families and all that kind of thing. 

MO JESSA: That was season two for me, when they go through that family battle at the end. It was like, oh my God. So well done. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. Are you on season three yet? 

MO JESSA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. We're episode seven or something. So, some good episodes that we've been through. OK. Well, I'm going to have to end this conversation because nobody's going to listen to a two-hour, a two-hour podcast. But I've so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. 

MO JESSA: Me too. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you very much for doing it. And the beauty is, as soon as I stop recording, we can keep talking. So let's say goodbye to our guests and thank them for joining us. And Mo, thank you for this conversation. 

MO JESSA: Oh, it was a real delight, a true honor. Thank you. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Me too. Take care. 

Now, did that conversation bring you comfort? I thought it was insightful. And I really enjoyed it myself. I hope you did too. Here are three key takeaways from my discussion with Mo. First of all, the importance of teaching and empowering others. Mo highlighted that his drive wasn't just to be the best chef or leader, but to learn so he could teach others. Empowering people to solve problems and take ownership was a cornerstone of his leadership approach at Earls. 

Now, this is a powerful reminder that investing in the growth of your team can lead to long-term success and personal fulfillment. The second insight was around self-awareness and emotional mastery. This was a recurring theme in Mo's journey, the importance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness, whether in times of personal crisis, professional transition, stepping back and reflecting on managing emotions was a key to success, even as he talked about his personal family relationships. 

As Mo shared, developing this skill is essential for any leader navigating today's complex business landscape. And thirdly, balancing entrepreneurial spirit with teamwork. Mo talked about how holding the tension between individual entrepreneurial drive. And the need for teamwork amongst his staff was a game changer. His leadership challenge was getting people to see that sometimes you have to lose the subgame to win the bigger game, which ultimately means the success of the whole organization. And this shift in culture at Earls was crucial to scaling the business into new regions. 

My last takeaway, and a very important one, it's been a while since I've eaten a Cajun chicken fettuccine Alfredo. I think it's time. You should try it too. Thanks for being you, Mo, and for taking the time to have this conversation with me. And to all of you, have a great day. 

Thank you for listening. Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you. 

To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, visit oceanbluestrategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivey Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast, and an exceptional thanks to my favorite indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast. Discover more about them on Instagram at lncconnected, and enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] I can't flow like this no more. 

No, I can't make it 

Far behind my eyes 

Mediation, suffocation 

It'll break me 

Information in disguise 

But when your eyes finally found mine 

You were there 

But I'm defined by the chaos in my mind 

I believe what I perceive is a weave 

Tearing at the seams 

And I wonder what's behind 

And my ears are bleeding 

And the reason isn't the logic of the season 

Taking the pleasing from my soul 

And leaving me to die 

And I feel the lace in delancey like racing and stationary animation 

Taking me from the purpose of my life