The Entrepreneur Inside: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

In this episode of the Navigating Disruption Podcast, Shakeel welcomes Jason MacDonnell (MBA ’00), Acting CEO and President of TELUS Digital Customer Experience. The two reminisce about their time together in business school and explore Jason’s journey from navigating the tech bubble burst to leading a digital transformation at one of Canada’s largest companies. Jason shares insights on balancing the entrepreneurial mindset within a large organization, the impact of sailing on his leadership style, and the importance of diversity and authenticity in driving innovation. Discover how teaching, mentorship, and goal setting have become pillars of his leadership approach. 

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy
Guest: Jason Macdonnell, Acting CEO and President of TELUS Digital Customer Experience 

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About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. Produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations 

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About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

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Episode Transcript

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Today's episode was a long time coming. I procrastinated for quite a while in asking Jason MacDonnell to be on my podcast. He's always been a private person, so I was sure he'd say no. But I stirred up the courage and asked, and he said yes. 

So it's a special episode for me because I reconnect with someone I first met during my MBA at Ivey Business School in 1998. Jason and I became very close friends very quickly during those intense early days of orientation, job searches, and interview prep. Lots of stress as we prepared for our new lives and new careers. 

Since then, we've both had some very interesting career journeys and intertwining paths actually. We've taken on a few projects together over the years and stayed connected despite being on different sides of the country. Currently, Jason is the CEO of Telus Digital and the president of Telus Digital Customer Experience. 

But this episode was recorded just a few weeks prior to this promotion, so he won't mention it in the conversation. Jason has led some of Telus's most exciting ventures, including building its smart security business. Now he is leading what is becoming Telus International's rebrand into Telus Digital. It's going to be a global leader in AI-driven customer experience solutions. 

Jason is a strategic, operational, and execution guru, and he's always had an entrepreneurial instinct that I have admired. Today, we reflect on his career, leadership lessons, and Telus's journey of transformation from being a communications provider to a diversified technology company. Enjoy the conversation. 

Welcome to the Navigating Disruption podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic, an executive coach at the Ivey Academy, and a partner with the Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking. 

Here, we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings. 

Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people. As I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau rivers, it's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place. 

For hundreds or probably thousands of years where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. 

Jason, how are you? 

JASON MACDONNELL: I'm doing well, Shakeel. How are you? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Good, good. I have to say, I really didn't ever believe that I would get you on this podcast. I don't know whether it was because I thought you were busy or because you just keep on going and you don't like this kind of promotional stuff. But I'm thrilled to have you here. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I know you always like to make me feel uncomfortable whenever you can. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome. Well, it's been really nice to be able to see you live in person a few months ago. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation because one of my favorite things to do on this podcast is use it to reconnect and connect with people that I've got a bit of history with. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Always makes for better conversations. And then, of course, you've had a remarkable career in leading technology, and we'll draw on those for sure, but not before we spend some time reflecting on our shared past, if you don't mind. 

JASON MACDONNELL: We've done a lot of things together. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Well, going back-- OK. So going back to about 1998 is when we first met at the Ivey Business School. We were doing our MBAs together, and we became friends pretty quickly I think, like in the first couple of days during orientation week or something. 

JASON MACDONNELL: It didn't take long for sure, I think. I think we actually went bowling together at the beginning. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: We did go bowling together. 

JASON MACDONNELL: We weren't particularly good at it, but we did do that. And then we did all those-- remember we did all of those consulting interview practices together? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, my gosh, that was intense. 

JASON MACDONNELL: That was unbelievable. That prepared me for this I think. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. A year in. But I found you very helpful actually because you're a bit of a tough nut, and I know I'm sure those that work with that. Your expectations are high. And I certainly felt that, even as your friend, that the push to make me better. And it worked because I did end up getting a job in consulting, as I know you did as well. So that was worth it, I remember. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. You were always the smooth presenter. The smooth operator in terms of just your demeanor, and it's great. And to see you today as a coach, I mean, it fits you so well because you were really good to me, coaching me through all those interviews. So it was fantastic. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you for saying that. And I don't know whether this or not, but the thing I always saw is maybe I was the smoother one maybe. But by far, you were the more intelligent one. I mean, you had the content, you had the substance, you had the goods, and I was always striving. So maybe we learn from each other. 

JASON MACDONNELL: I think we did. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, awesome. One of my favorite memories, although I don't know if you'll remember, it was in my underground parking garage when my bumper was falling off my beat up Honda Civic. And you came over, and you crawled under my car with your handyman skills and some wire and tied my bumper back, so that I could make road trips to Toronto. 

JASON MACDONNELL: I had forgotten about that. I'd forgotten about that. Being resourceful is pretty key. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: For sure. And then we went upstairs, and Nerissa, my partner, made us pancakes. Anyway, that's how far back we go. But OK, so that was the MBA experience. We can talk about that if you want. But since that time, boy, we both had quite a career. The theme of the podcast is navigating disruption. 

And one of the biggest disruptions we faced after business school, graduating in 2000, was the burst of the tech bubble. And we were all excited, optimistic about these great jobs. We got jobs. But then for many of us, things changed and transformed, and the future wasn't as bright as we thought it would be. What do you remember from that time? 

JASON MACDONNELL: You know, one of the things I remember about that time was we were trying to really value companies back then. And everybody was looking for different valuation models and how to predict how to determine what these organizations would be when they grow up. 

And I don't know if you remember, but there were valuations on x millions of dollars per engineer that you had or other ratios that were being thrown around. And at the end of the day, it really did come down to companies that could scale on a sustainable basis. The fundamentals. The fundamentals of running a firm. All the firms that had cultural issues tend to-- they would destruct. They'd destroy themselves, essentially, and they weren't sustainable. So there was a lot of lessons that were learned during that time, I think, and people now are a little bit more savvy about how to build a sustainable business model. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. And I do remember the conversations, but it was a minority. The minority were talking about, it's about the fundamentals of the business model. I mean, it was pretty heady. A lot of people were trying to make a lot of money in those days, and many did. But then those that couldn't actually convert to something real fell out. And many people, our classmates in particular, ended up becoming victims of that. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Even if they weren't directly involved. But for example, the consulting industry was very involved in a lot of that work. And when the bubble burst, a lot of us, our classmates were looking for different work. 

JASON MACDONNELL: That's right. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Shortly after graduation. But it worked out for everybody it seems. Worked out. It worked out for you. 

JASON MACDONNELL: It was phenomenal. I mean, I think we were pretty blessed to be in the graduating class we were. The talent in that class, the personalities, the character, a lot of that. Almost everybody in the class went on to be leaders in their own right. And it's quite phenomenal. And then some of those team members or those classmates are no longer with us, unfortunately. But it has been a pleasure to watch just how well everyone has done. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Well, let's fast forward to today. I've shared-- at this point, our listeners have heard a little bit about you in my introduction to the podcast, but let's hear it from your words. How do you describe your role today, what you're doing, the organization you work for, your scope of current responsibility. 

JASON MACDONNELL: It depends on the time of day these days. Things change a lot know. So my formal role as senior vice president of customer experience and president of our smart security and automation division. And when I look at my job on a daily basis, it's pretty diverse. The scope covers a lot of operations. It covers a lot of activities around serving customers, whether it's technician services or agent services. 

But also really looking at how technology can be applied to serve customers when, and where, and how they like to be served. And they have so many options now, right? There's so many aspects of customer service and operations that is enabled by new technologies and new capabilities. It's always changing. Every day is another change or another new emerging technology coming forward. So I have an exciting role, and it's really a lot of fun. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Just keeping in touch with you over the years, your role has continued to expand and evolve, and I want to get into some of that a little bit as far as what you've learned about changing roles and expanding scope. 

But just to make it real for my listeners, can you give me some type of service, or program, or something that you lead that an everyday consumer would be able to wrap their mind around? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Sure. Let's talk about our security alarm and smart home automation business. So lots of homes have security alarms, lots of businesses. We've taken that to the next level and use it to not only introduce security and safety to customers, but we also automate their homes through that same service. 

And so I think that's one service we started up. We started with zero customers in 2018. And we are privileged to have over 1 million customers today. So it was a great business, and it continues to be a fantastic business that is taking us into new spaces. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Now we're going to go backwards and forwards in this conversation. So actually, wouldn't mind diving in since you brought it up, about home security solutions. I know that you made a major acquisition, which you were obviously very involved with. Did you actually start building the security business before that acquisition? 

JASON MACDONNELL: We did. Yeah. We actually have done about a dozen acquisitions that are associated with it. But we built the business both organically and inorganically. Right? So one of the ways we started was to actually purchase a portion of the alarm force. I don't remember if you remember alarm force. Remember that old company? 

So that got us a jump start into the business. And really, what it did is it didn't really come with a lot of capability, if any. It came with three employees and about 30,000 customers. So at that point, you were really forced to figure out how to build a business around it because you now have customers. You now have to serve those customers, and you need an entire business, including talent and resources, to do it. 

So we were on a deadline. We had six months to basically learn about the industry, build the technology, create the operations to support it, and build a team that was capable of sustaining that business and growing it. And then we quickly from there did other acquisitions, built all new technology capabilities and operational capabilities. And today, we find ourselves with the largest security company and the fastest growing in North America. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Amazing, amazing. Well, I am a customer because we were a customer of a company that you acquired. And I can pleasantly report that we've had improved service over that time. It's easier to find out the number to call and solve problems with somebody on the phone. So that's a good sign of your leadership, I think. 

And I've never actually called you and said, Jason, can you help me with this problem I'm having with customer service? It's been all resolved really well. Well, actually, that talk about kind of starting things up and learning a new industry, it kind of makes me think about the struggle that a lot of companies have. 

If you think of Telus, like going way back to my early university years, I had a professor at the time that was a retired vice president from what was called BC Tel at the time. And I mean, literally, it was landline telephones at that time. And the innovation, because my dad had one, was the phone in the car that he-- we didn't need it. I mean, we had a gas station. But he just liked the novelty of having a phone in the car. 

And that was an innovation. So when you now start talking about the moving into the home security business, that's very different. What was it like to actually go down this path of a very different business in a very established company that was in basically one market, one industry. What was that like? 

Well, I mean, it's always a bit unsettling, right, when you first think of the change that is involved and the mindset that is involved. I mean, thankfully, I was an entrepreneur before I joined Telus. And so I had a little bit of confidence and experience on startups and what to do with that. But it's always a little unsettling. 

And then when you layer on top of that the expectations of building a business of consequence. One that is worthy of a Telus brand and worthy of the size and magnitude. And you're starting from scratch. Like that's a lot to digest. And when your target is to be over a million customers in less than five years, that's a lot to digest. So those are exciting times. But those are the things that stretch you, right? They make you grow and learn so much through the process. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. When you think about that, being an entrepreneur. I mean, you were an entrepreneur at a very young age. I remember before you came to business school, you had a couple of different ventures in the art world and I think, scrap world or something, recycling. 

JASON MACDONNELL: We did wood fiber recycling. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: You were probably in your 20s at the time. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yes. Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So it's one thing to do a startup independently on your own, maybe a partner, building something from scratch. You make mistakes, you fumble. It's really just the consequences are you. But when you're doing it inside a large organization where the pressure is immense, the expectations are large, the investment is there for sure, but that also means the stakes are higher. 

JASON MACDONNELL: They can be. I mean, you have both. You're right. Absolutely. Like Telus is fairly unique in its ambition and risk propensity to deal with new services. We're in the agtech business, and we had foray into agricultural technology and consumer goods, and we're building and growing that business. We have a health business that is growing and being fostered by some fantastic leaders. And then we went security and automation. And we also have an international business in Telus International, now Telus Digital Experience. 

It's really a unique culture in that sense. So yes, certainly, there's a lot at stake. But you also can draw upon a lot of talent, and resources, and team members that are, quite frankly, second to none. The culture of the organization, it is oriented around being resourceful and helpful. 

It's a relatively humble organization in terms of its capability. I think we really understate what the organization has accomplished and the contributions it makes to Canada, the world in general. But when you have that talent, when you have that confidence in the team members, it makes it a lot easier to go after some of these ambitious goals. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. That resonates for me because, you know this, that I've had the opportunity to work with Telus on the sales side as part of my work with the business school and the education. We're doing it for your kind of master sales people. 

And one of the observations I have from now working with two different cohorts is that everybody is extremely committed to a purpose, and they are very comfortable being who they are. There's no kind of one uniform person. They all have diverse skill sets. And they dress differently, and they're comfortable being themselves. 

I've met a number of senior leaders as well as frontline folks, and I've been really impressed that people are allowed just to be who they are, and nobody seems like they have to try to pretend to fit into a mold. I've been really impressed with the culture. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. It really makes the teams interesting, right? Because that diversity, bringing your best self to work in whatever form that takes is so important. And it allows people to be comfortable. It allows them to be creative. And it adds, quite frankly, to the resiliency of our organization. 

You talk about some of the risks and things that we have to do and some of the challenges that we need to face. We get through those because we have so much diversity in talent and ideas, and that really helps you weather those challenges or pursue those opportunities. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I want to take us back in time now, way back in time. You grew up on an Orchard, right? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yes, yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: In BC in Kelowna? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. Peach Orchard. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Peach Orchard. I remember one day when we had an exam in our operations class, and it was a killer exam. I found it really tough. It actually was an operations case that took place in an orchard. And after the exam, I was like, beat up. I was feeling awful. I came to you. You had this huge smile on your face, and you revealed to me that you grew up on an Orchard. And I thought, oh man. I wish I had that kind of advantage. 

But just speaking of that time, are there experiences either in your early childhood or adolescence that you kind of remember either people, places, events, stories that you feel influence the kind of leader you are today? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. There's plenty actually. When I think about how you walk through the experiences that you have on this Earth, like you're always learning from people. And I always take away these morsels or these key attributes of an individual, and I tuck those away. And I try to-- the ones that-- both the good and the bad, right? 

You see people and sometimes how they lead or talk to people, and you say, OK, that's not for me. I won't go that way. And that's just as important to know and to know yourself as the ones where you see people doing some amazing things. And some of those things are small and subtle, right? 

Like I remember one of the many jobs that I had was as a sailing instructor. And we were trying to start up, make the school a large sailing school. So we were started. We started with five boats. It was not for profit organization. And we had our sights on being the biggest and the best. 

And you there was lots of people at that time that were constantly mentoring me because I was a young guy. I was 13 years old. You're dealing with adults and trying to teach adults how to sail. You're dealing with kids who don't have a lot of experience managing kids at that time. 

And so you have to grow up, in some ways, quite quickly. So being surrounded by a community of adults at a young age that were constantly helping you grow as an instructor, as a coach, as a responsible person, and as an entrepreneur. Right? How do we sell and promote this program? 

And within about four or five years, we're the largest program in Canada and had all kinds of amazing achievements. And then the team that came along after me took it to the next level even further. But that was, I think, a very influential time for me. Just being able to deal with something like a business like that. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right. Well, you were 13 years old. Did somebody tap you on the shoulder or say, hey, Jason, why don't you do this? Or like how did it even get started? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. My father was in sailing, and he raced sailboats. And so I got into racing. And then there were a few of us that were racers. And so they said, you should take your sailing instructor's course. You could work here in the summer. We did a lot of volunteer hours, and then we moved on from there. 

And my father was always really good at thinking about what are the opportunities that come by, and how do you capitalize on those, and how do you keep all your doors open? Because originally, it would have been easy for me to just quit sailing because I started when I was about five or six years old. And, you're soaking wet all the time. You're out there. You're capsizing, and it gets very frustrating. 

But he always taught us resiliency and stick with it, and good things will happen know. And it did. And I got to sail all over different places all over the Pacific Northwest. And it was a fantastic experience. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Do you ever find yourself in a difficult business situation or talking to a group of people. Do you ever draw on specific metaphors or experiences and tell stories about certain things? Is that something that you do? And if so, I'd love to hear a metaphor that you might use in a business situation. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Well, I think there's a lot of crises that you deal with in business. And you draw drawing on those as sources of inspiration, sources of best practice, or sometimes, sources of what not to do. I've been in situations where you've had to be parachuted into a project. Maybe a project's gone awry. 

And I remember one in particular where my wife Jennifer and I, little kids, and we were going on vacation. And I got a phone call while we were driving back to the Okanagan. And she looked at me and said, uh-oh. Uh-oh, I think I've got another one here. 

And sure enough, the next day I had to fly out. And I started a six-month project that was incredibly intense. And we had to turn this project around. The consequences for the organization, both from a brand and a financial impact perspective, numbers at the time that I was just trying to wrap my head around. 

And I often will reflect back on that time as instrumental in developing some ways to lead a team through disruptive change or lead a team through an intense, pressurized situation. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, my goodness. That is perfect, that segue. Not planned, but one of the places I wanted to go with you is to understand. I mean, I'm sure as your career has evolved and you're given these opportunities, you touched on one example. Sometimes, you just get a phone call or a tap on the shoulder and said, hey, Jason, I need you to fix this. 

Sometimes, you might be involved in something that evolves into a bigger role. But when you get that phone call and that tap on the shoulder, it's something you ought to solve for, how do you actually start? Like what's your kind of playbook or first thing you do when you're facing something that is broken and you don't know even where to start? How do you start? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Just be ruthlessly pragmatic. One of the first places I start is just let's take stock of what are the resources that are available to us, right? Whether it's talent and people and capacity or technology or just what have I got to work with here. Right? So key. So key. 

And then seeking clarity around the outcome. What does good look like, right? At the end of this, what would success look like? Because sometimes, success is just mitigating. Other times, it's coming out with spectacular outcomes. But you really have to understand that, and sometimes, that success needs to be negotiated upfront too, right? So you're not creating disappointment or surprise. 

But I think with that, once you have a sense of the resources at your disposal, a shared outcome that's been established, from there, it comes down to being a very good tactician and understanding how do you put those resources to their highest and best use, and how do you keep fostering and nurturing the resources that you need to get through the challenge. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. So now here's what my kind of memory and what I think of when I think of Jason is. Everything you just said, right? Really pragmatic tactician, very operationally executing-oriented. Now, given the role you have in the span and the scope is large. We haven't talked numbers, but I generally have a sense of how big the organizations are that you lead. 

It's one thing to be a really good tactician yourself. It's one thing to be able to sit down and take stock of what's available yourself. It's one thing to take a piece of paper and say, here's what I think success looks like. How do you do that with a team of like 10 people around a table? What have you learned about taking people through that? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. Either 10 or 10,000, right? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, right. 

JASON MACDONNELL: I think, so really important to set the goal together. Really important to understand that and set an ambitious goal. Because people will always surprise you in terms of what they can accomplish. And it depends on the situation. But generally speaking, when you're talking about a senior leadership team, for example, I think it's setting an outcome and a goal and then letting them basically determine how. 

You're on the wrong side of a ratio. You can't be running around telling people how they're going to execute against it. You have to be very clear on the outcomes, what that looks like, what good looks like. And then just be absolutely fearless in supporting them and supporting, providing the investment, the resources, and the advocacy that they need to achieve that outcome. 

If you don't have the right people, that's a different problem, right? But when you have the right people, you have the right team, and you have trust, I think essentially, you start with establishing the outcomes, allowing them to bring back the plans, iterating those plans, and then ruthlessly supporting them. I love it. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So in order to really get their ownership and they're stepping up to identify the possible solutions, the idea is they need to have a say in what the goal is. You just can't handle the goal and say, OK, I need you guys to do this. Go figure out how and tell me how. They have to have a say in what that goal is. 

JASON MACDONNELL: I think so. And I think there's varying there's varying levels of input, right? Let's face it. We all have to answer to either a board or an executive and establish goals that are going to be a collective goal for the success of the organization. 

But there are a lot of milestones that are important along the way, that help to contribute to that. I mean, listening to people's experience and talent and expertise and why they're there, it ensures that those milestones are achievable. 

My job at that point is to push a little further, right? Can we do it faster? What else could we do? How else might we establish the same outcome? And that way, you're pushing. You're pushing. You're stretching and hopefully not breaking. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So Jason, do you sometimes ask that question, what can we do-- How can we do this faster? How can we do this better? Do you sometimes ask those questions without really knowing that there is a faster or a better way, just to see if somebody else comes up with it? 

JASON MACDONNELL: All the time. All the time. My team will tell you, yeah. All the time. And it's amazing what they come up with. It's just the creativity and the resourcefulness is amazing. All the time. Like can we do it faster? Can we pull it forward? Can we do it for less? Is there another way that has fewer implications? Just I think asking those questions and using the team for exploration is super important. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And one of the kind of working theories I've developed over the last several years is this idea that leading through times of disruption requires leaders that can perfectly balance giving clarity of direction with allowing space for exploration, and nurturing, and failure, and all of that at the same time. That's kind of what you're describing. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. And you said perfectly, you lost me at perfectly because there's no way I can do that perfectly, nor do I even come close to that. But there's some good leaders out there that are better than me that can probably do that. But I agree, right? It's when things are most intense, that anxiety is high, pressure is high, and creativity starts to diminish. The pressure is too high. 

So you start to lose that talent and that capability you actually need at the time, right? And it becomes a bit of a pressure cooker. We're going through one of those times now as the mobility industry is coming under incredible pricing pressure and regulatory pressure. And you're starting to see the impacts on the industry more broadly. 

And it's times like this that, yeah, you really need team members to have a little space. And yet, all of the confluence of factors makes it very difficult to give them that space. Everybody gets tight, tight, right? tight. On outcomes. Tight on the prescription on how. And you just don't get the same efficacy. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So one of the things that I've also come across is as you get more senior in organizations, one of the greatest services you can provide to your team is to help them unlock resources or make connections in a whole different area of the company. 

And I'm wondering what has been your experience with that? Do you find people asking you to help them get access to another part of the company, and is that challenging for you, or is that something that is very easy? 

JASON MACDONNELL: It's really easy. It's something I coach people on constantly. We're a matrix organization in many respects. And that network that we create, right, that connective tissue that's created by cross-pollinating talent across the organization. 

You sometimes hear about bosses who block people from moving over to another division or things. Like that doesn't happen in our organization to the same extent I don't think. Our people and culture team is phenomenal. And helping to foster and bridge people's careers across a number of different functions and skills and levels, et cetera. 

And it's something we give a lot of thought to, succession planning, and how do you use projects to maybe try out a different role? Or how do you leverage a relationship in order to develop new skill sets and get exposure to different areas of the business? 

And so I really encourage that. I really like to see people being introduced to new areas and try things out. And there's a lot of ways as a leader, you can set up risk free trials, right? And you've been in finance for so long, why don't I put you on this people and culture project over here? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Right? Why don't you try out this over here. Or there's a marketing campaign we're about to work on. You could bring your finance skills over to that and help them with their pricing strategy as an example. The more you do of that and the more cross-pollinization you get, I think the stronger the fabric in your organization. And just also, how much more interesting is your career? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. I remember, obviously, there was what? It was mid-2010, 2011? You and I partnered to teach a course at the University of British Columbia. Supply chain course, a master's course. 

JASON MACDONNELL: I remember that. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That was really awesome, getting to collaborate with you on that. And so one of the things I learned about you at that time is how much you really enjoyed teaching and helping the next generation of leaders, and identifying talent, and pushing them further. It sounds like you've taken that, and you continue to teach as you lead. Is that accurate? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah, I love that. I don't know. I mean, remember at Ivey, we did the case method, right? And we took that into our instructing at UBC. And I think as long as you're always open to learning yourself and being curious about businesses, or problems, or opportunities, it's not really teaching, right? You learn so much right through the engagement and the discussion. 

And you're simultaneously building your own knowledge base just based on the interaction. And so it's fuel. It's fuel for the mind. It's fuel for the career. So yeah, you get a lot of energy from that, for sure. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So that's a really great visual for me because what you're saying and I'm interpreting is that as a leader, the act of coaching, nurturing, creating opportunities for other people, as much as it's an act of helping them learn, it's really an act of creating opportunities for you to learn in the process of that other person's learning. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Absolutely. The rest of the reciprocity there in terms of value is really high. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that's why professors go into that, is that constant learning through their students and their research. And you found a way to do that while running a business, which is really neat. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. It was. It's really neat. But like we spend a lot of time on education here as well, right? We spend so much time and investment on education, leadership education in particular but also skills based education. 

And we've been to some of the greatest business schools for executive courses you could ever ask for. And then we take those learnings, whether they're from Harvard or INSEAD or you name it. And we actually bring those back into the organization. And we formally and purposely disseminate that information. We use it. And you've coached in our organization. You've consulted. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah. 

JASON MACDONNELL: We disseminate that very purposely throughout the organization and use that. And we do it in such a way that it's an evolution, right? It's an evolution based on what are the factors influencing our industry, and what skills and culture do we need to develop to be successful with the road ahead? Right? And when you do that, I think it really gives the organization a common language, common context. And most importantly, people value the investment in their personal growth. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it. That's one thing over the last couple of years I now do all the time when I'm running an executive education program, whether it's three days, or five days, or eight days. I make sure on the last day-- first of all, I make sure that every day, they take time to reflect on what's impacting them. 

But on the last day, we worked through an exercise where I asked them to think through, so how are they going to go back to their organization, and what's the narrative they're going to share on how they've changed, how they're going to change, the way they engage with their colleagues, and how are they going to have better impact on their customers based on the experience you just had? 

And if they come up with a narrative on the last day, it prepares them to go use the narrative. But in reality, what that's doing is preparing them to actually act and do things differently because they've formulated that narrative. It's my favorite day out of the entire experience. Because that's when you know that they've been changed. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Right. And you're crystallizing the commitment to take that away. And I mean, isn't it more fulfilling to learn something and share it than it is to just have it go cold storage? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: For sure. I'm in a dream job. I've done what you've done in an organization running the business and teaching. And while I do miss the running of the business part of it, oftentimes, the joy I get from that kind of learning experience in my own learning through other people's learning is nothing like it. I do feel like it's a bit of a dream I'm living, so-- 

JASON MACDONNELL: Well, let's go teach at a university together again. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Sounds good. That would be great. Well, can you believe it? We've already been together talking for about 40 minutes. Let's start to bring things to a close. There's lots of stuff we still haven't talked about, but that's OK. Let's let you get on with your day. I do want to do a bit of lightning round at the end if you're OK. If you were to do anything other than what you're doing now, what would you spend your days doing? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. I would teach business cases. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: You'd be teaching? 

JASON MACDONNELL: Yeah. I would be teaching. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. Very good. All right. Completely different question. You're sailing. I don't know. I'm not a sailor, so I'm going to make up a setting. You're sailing. The winds are in your favor. You're just cruising, and you have your earbuds in and you're listening to a song. What's the song that comes to mind? 

JASON MACDONNELL: What's the song? Rolling Stones. "You Can't Always Get What You Want." 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I love it. OK, good. If you were to write a book, what would the title be? 

JASON MACDONNELL: What would the title be? I would say Thoughtful Transformation. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Love it. That's great. Jason, thank you for your time. I know that your time is very valuable. I know you're really busy, and I'm so grateful you've taken that time to spend with me and with my listeners. So I appreciate it. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Shakeel, always great to talk to you. It's so good to see you. And I look forward to teaching together in our future. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, absolutely. We'll find a way for sure. 

JASON MACDONNELL: All right. Take care. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Take care. Bye. 

JASON MACDONNELL: Bye. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: As we wrap up this episode, I wanted to share my three important takeaways from this long-awaited conversation with Jason MacDonnell. First is the conversation around the entrepreneurial mindset within a large organization. Jason shared how he and his team built Telus Smart Security from the ground up, starting with just a handful of employees and zero customers. 

His approach emphasized the importance of quickly scaling operations, adapting to new industries and relying on resourcefulness. Even in a large corporate environment, Jason cultivated a startup mentality, leveraging organic growth, as well as some acquisitions to create North America's largest and fastest growing security business. 

Second, Jason pointed out the power of diversity and authenticity in driving innovation. At Telus, teams are encouraged to bring their authentic selves to work. This culture of openness allows for a wide range of perspectives. It fuels creativity and resilience. He explained how diverse ideas and approaches help organizations navigate challenges, especially during times of disruption and how this diversity is central to building a strong, innovative company that adapts to change. 

Finally, there are mutual benefits to teaching and mentorship in leadership. Throughout his career, Jason has prioritized coaching and developing talent within his teams. He views leadership as a two-way street, where the leader and their team learn and grow together by creating opportunities for others to step up, Jason fosters an environment where leaders emerge. And through this process, he also continues to develop his own skills. 

His passion for teaching, whether in the classroom or business, reflects the importance of shared learning in driving personal and organizational growth. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Thank you, Jason, for taking the time. Have a great day, everyone. 

Thank you for listening. Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you. 

To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Visit oceanbluestrategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivey Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast, and an exceptional thanks to my favorite indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast. Discover more about them on Instagram at lncconnected and enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode. 

[SLOW MUSIC] 

(SINGING) I'm not where I want to be 

Maybe where I'm meant to be 

I beg, I plead for clarity 

Break this cage and set me free 

I don't care 

And I don't feel 

I don't know what's really real 

And I cry and I cry.