Gen AI Goes to School: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

When you think of professions embracing AI, a high school English teacher might not be the first that comes to mind. While AI in business and technology is increasingly accepted, education faces unique challenges—particularly concerns about students using AI to cut corners on assignments, potentially learning less in the process.  
 

In this thought-provoking episode of the Navigating Disruption Podcast, Shakeel sits down with Brett Walker, a high school English teacher who has embraced AI as a transformative tool for education. Brett shares his journey from the classroom to a new role in his school district’s education technology initiatives. Together, they explore how AI can enhance teaching and learning while addressing the challenges of getting educators to adopt this technology to improve their effectiveness. 
This conversation goes beyond the classroom, delving into how we must prepare students, professionals, and leaders for a future where critical thinking, interpersonal skills, and the ethical use of AI will define success.  
 

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy
Guest: Brett Walker, high school English teacher 

Other ways to listen:

• Apple Podcasts

• Spotify Podcasts

---

About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. Produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations 

---

About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

---

 Episode Transcript

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Today's episode takes us into an area that I have become deeply passionate about the future of AI-- both in education and its impact on the workforce of tomorrow. 

My fascination with AI began the day that ChatGPT launched. My son, a university student, called me urging me to dive into this world with him. That first experience with AI was eye opening and mind blowing, to say the least. 

And it led me down a path of experimenting with AI on a daily basis, integrating it into my work and sharing it with others. Since then, I have become somewhat of an AI evangelist, enough that even my wife, who hears about it regularly from me, mentioned a teacher colleague of hers who landed a new role focused on AI in education. 

So that connection led me to today's guest, Brett Walker, a high school English teacher who has transitioned into the role dedicated to exploring and implementing AI technology across his school district, the Ottawa Catholic District School board. 

Brett's journey from classroom teaching to educational technology really caught my attention. In a time when we're all considering how to prepare leaders and businesses for an AI integrated future, Brett is looking at a fundamental piece of that puzzle, the way we are equipping students and their teachers with AI skills today. 

In this episode, Brett and I discuss the opportunities and challenges AI brings to education and how these changes might prepare students for an evolving workforce. We share a common focus. He is shaping the minds of young people, and I am shaping the perspective of leaders. 

This conversation is all about connecting those worlds and exploring how AI will not just affect education, but also the future of work. Enjoy the conversation. 

Welcome to the Navigating Disruption podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic, an executive coach at the Ivey Academy, and a partner with the Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking. 

Here, we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals. And more importantly, how we can grow as human beings. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. As I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau rivers. 

It's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place. For hundreds or probably thousands of years, where these rivers meet, has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. 

And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. Brett, how are you today? 

BRETT WALKER: I'm doing great. How about you? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Good, good. I should say this evening because you've already had a full day. And I've already had a full day. It's night time. You've had dinner. Are your kids of the age that you have to put them to bed or do they pretty much go to bed themselves? 

BRETT WALKER: One is out of the house, first year university at Trent. The second one is-- he's up later than I am usually. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So it's pretty much dinner clean up and then here we are having this conversation. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Fantastic. Well, I want to have the audience connect a little bit with how we actually are here together in this conversation because a lot of my podcasts are with people that I have some history with. But of course, we don't have a history, but still very much looking forward to this conversation. 

But before we dive in, just introduce yourself to the audience-- who are you, what's your profession, and then we'll get into making sense on why we're here together. 

BRETT WALKER: Sure. Yeah, my name is Brett Walker. I'm a consultant with Learning Technologies at the Ottawa Catholic school board. I'm brand new in the role as of September this year. 

For the last 20 or so years, I've been an English teacher. And I've worked at two different schools-- Lester Pearson High School and lately at St Pius the 10th high school. Yeah, that's most of my career right now. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So you're an English teacher by profession, and having a newly found yourself in this role in Learning Technology, and spending a lot of time thinking about AI and helping the system, the education system, think about AI, which is a teaser as to why we're talking today. 

So I remember one day my son called me-- a couple of years ago, probably the day that ChatGPT launched mainstream. And he is studying engineering at Western University. And he called me and said, OK, you need to go to this website. And I need you to add in some question that you don't know the answer of. And I just followed along, I did it. And my mind was blown. 

And immediately the next day-- this was ChatGPT, of course. And immediately, the next day, I started playing with it. Originally, it was really, hey, what kind of poem could I write about this and tell me a story about this. 

And then it got very quickly into using it for work. And we'll talk about that in a bit. But I've been increasingly excited, blown away seeing the possibilities of AI in our lives. And every night and every conversation, every social engagement, I start talking about things I'm doing with AI. And my wife Nerissa gets-- I think she's really sick of it because it's constant. 

One day she said to me, you know who you should talk to? You know who you need to have a conversation with? And she told me about you, and your passion, and your interest in AI. 

She was excited to connect us, but I think deep down it was just so I had somebody else to talk to. And I didn't talk to her about it. So here we are. And I'm really grateful we're here together because we're going to cover a wide range of topics, I think, some of it we don't even know the answers to. But I just love to have this conversation. I think others would as well. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, no, absolutely. My family makes fun of me too whenever I refer to Gemini for some backup to my arguments. Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm excited to talk about it. I'm spending a lot of time working with teachers, looking at tools that use AI, talking about AI's role in education, and how it can be used. 

And it's changing by the day, which is both exciting and scary in a lot of ways. Yeah, no, I was excited to connect with you and get to know you a bit better. So it was awesome. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, awesome. Of course I spend a lot of time thinking about AI's use in the business world. And for me, I'm very much in adult education and leadership education. And so I use it in educational settings and all of that. 

But I'm really eager to speak to you because when you said that you're applying in educational settings-- and if I really think about the impact of AI, yes, it's pretty incredible now. But really, we don't even know about the real impact is. And you're working at it in the education system. 

So I'm super intrigued to talk about, what are going to be the implications for the young people in school today who are going to-- this is going to be a way of life for them. I guess they're calling them Gen Alpha. There'll be another one coming along pretty quick after that. 

And what's the workplace going to look like? What are leaders going to have to think about? So we'll jump into that conversation. But that's why I'm super eager to talk to you because you're thinking about some of those things in the education system today. And that's our-- being a futurist a little bit, let's ramble on a little bit about what that could mean. 

BRETT WALKER: And so much of it is speculative right now because it's still in its infancy, really. And it's growing by the day. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And we'll create it. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I mean, obviously, there's scientists creating it. But the way we use it will also drive innovations. So let me start a little bit by just getting a bit more about you and your background. 

I mean you're an English teacher by profession. Can you just tell me a little bit about what was it that led you down this path? Was it something that you always knew you wanted to be a teacher or did you fall into it? Tell me about that story. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, OH my gosh. So when I was in high school, I was really good in maths and sciences. That was my strength. I did really well in them. But my passions, my interest was always in other stuff-- literature, arts, those sort of things. 

And it was my grade 13 OAC English teacher who said, hey, you should be a teacher. And I had never even thought about it until he said that. And even at the time, I'm like, well, whatever. I had no career plans at the time. 

But in university, I took the humanities at Carleton, which was a relatively new program at the time and really neat, but studied philosophy, English, religion, languages, all sorts of things. 

And that really guided me in that direction. And when I finished the program, I was like, OK, what am I going to do now? I didn't really know. And I did spend some time writing because that was one of my passions as a young child. 

And I realized, OK, I can't sit around all day. It's going to be hard to turn this into a living. So I had a lot of odd jobs. And I was even, at the time, a volunteer firefighter out in the country. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Wow. 

BRETT WALKER: Which was which was fun and exciting, but I'm like, not the career for me either. And so it was like-- I applied to teachers college right before the due date. 

And it was really tough to get in at the time, but I managed to get in and went to Ottawa U. And that just set me on that path. And I loved it. I loved every minute of it. Really enjoyed being an English teacher. I still do. I still really have a passion for it. 

But then in the last year when AI started blowing up, a bunch of teachers said, hey, we got to look at this. We gotta get ahead of this wave that's coming because it could have a real disruption to the education system. 

And so this was last year. We formed a group of teachers. And everybody was really interested in it. A lot of people were afraid, like everybody's going to cheat. It's going to just throw a wrench in the whole system. 

But as we got together and started looking at things, and sharing, and talking, and exploring these different products and tools. We saw both the dangers but also the potential. And that's what propelled me. 

Then a position did open up at the board office in Learning Technologies as a consultant. And I thought, hey, let's try something new. Let's try a new challenge. To be honest, here, I was very much on the fence. 

I love what I'm doing. I love where I'm working. I love the people I work with, the students, the teachers, the staff. Do I want to leave that for something completely different, something unknown? And yeah, I just said, let's do it. Let's try it. You only live once, right? It was a huge change for me. And I'm still getting used to it, but it's been exciting. 

I spent the last two days-- I actually went back to the first high school I worked at today and got to see a lot of people that I worked with in the past 13 or so years ago and share AI, and share tools, and sit down and talk with them, and hear both their experiences, their seeing and feeling. It was awesome. It was a nice way to spend the day today. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, well, that's amazing. Brett, there's so much that I've heard in the last few minutes that I'm really curious about. And I don't know if I can pull on all the threads. 

But one thing that really struck me is when you described how you ended up becoming a teacher in the first place. One of the things you said is that one of your teachers said to you in high school, in grade 13, that you should be a teacher. 

I love your response. And your, whatever, 17 or 18-year-old voice was, yeah, whatever. But that really was impactful, maybe not impactful in the moment, but later on, you look back on that conversation and you realize that was a seminal moment, even though you didn't realize it at the moment that it was. That's pretty cool. 

So I think about, now, you in the role of teacher and how many conversations you've had with students. And you may not even realize the impact you've had on somebody. 

I'm a coach as a profession, as you know. And we often talk about-- sometimes the impact you make as a coach isn't in the conversation. It's in the weeks, months, and sometimes even years after the conversation because you may have asked a question that prompt a really deep cycle of reflection. 

So anyway, I just say that because it's my way of giving respect and props to any teachers that are listening to this, to yourself as a teacher, that in case you don't know it, the impact you make is a lot greater than what's happening in the classroom in a particular moment. So I wanted to just acknowledge that. 

Do you think about that sometimes, about the impact you're having on individual kids and sometimes wondering whether you're making a difference at all? 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah. Well, every so often you see a student you taught a long time ago. And they share something. You get letters, cards from students telling about positive impact you had. And for me, it's really neat when you see students you taught come back as teachers in the system, get to work with them. I think that's really cool. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, I think there's a lot of similarities between a really great committed teacher that is human centered and a really strong leader that is human centered. Same idea-- making an impact, impacting people so they go out and impact other people and create those ripples. So there's a lot in common. 

I toyed with the idea myself of becoming a teacher very recently, probably just maybe seven or eight years ago. I thought after leaving-- I was planning on leaving my role as an executive in a nonprofit. And I wanted to do something different. I wanted to do a pivot like you did. 

And I thought, maybe I'll go and be a teacher. And then somebody showed me this path that, yeah, you can be a teacher, but you can do it in a corporate setting, and leverage your experience, and do it for adults. So that's how I'm on my path. 

But enough about me. I really do identify with that journey that you've been on. The next thing that I wanted to pull on a little bit is, you said it very quickly and almost nonchalantly, but a bunch of teachers got together and said we should figure out what to do about this AI thing. 

I don't know if you've ever been exposed to Malcolm Gladwell's work, The Tipping Point. Has that come across your desk at all? 

BRETT WALKER: I'm familiar with Malcolm Gladwell. I have read a lot of his stuff, but yeah I do. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, so the idea that early on before the world's really embracing AI in education, you and a few other people are talking about it. And that discussion turns into an organized group of people. And that organized group of people and the discussions you're having leads you to now think about a career in this space. I think that's very cool. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, a few years ago I would never have thought that this was where I was going to end up. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, it's just amazing the idea that the way we interact, the things we talk about, the questions we ask ourselves, the people we interact with actually do influence our choices and paths and put us in situations that we would never anticipate. 

Anyway, those are a few things that as I was listening to you that I found really cool. And now the big career pivot. So congratulations, kudos. That is a big leap to go from your profession of teaching in a classroom, something you loved, to going down this path. The first day, reporting to your new job, were you excited or were you like, what the heck did I just do? 

BRETT WALKER: First day, I was more worried about how I was going to get in the building because I didn't have the code. It was a nervous excitement. I had met a lot of the people I was going to work with. 

And I was really excited to work with this team. So it wasn't too unfamiliar going in there, but I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing. So there was just so much to learn. There's still so much to learn. 

But it is exciting too and I love learning. And I really interested in the stuff I'm working with. And every day, I learn from the people I'm working with. I learn from-- I'm showing people stuff. And I'm learning from them too. Yeah, it's fun in that aspect. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. Well, it's so true that when you are a teacher, a facilitator, or a coach, you yourself are also learning in the process of teaching and helping others. And it's great to be open to that. 

Well, let's get into this conversation because one of the things I'm really curious about and have been for a long time-- of course, I interact with people that are both very excited and positive about AI in their work and then those that are really skeptical and think it's the beginning of the Terminator movie and just don't want to have anything to do with it. 

And so I'm curious what you've been coming across as talk to educators. Give me the range of perspectives and maybe channel one of your colleagues without naming names on both ends of the continuum. What are you hearing? 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, we're hearing everything. Our goal right now is to try to get into every high school and do PD sessions with staff. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: PD meaning professional development? 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, yeah. And the way we're doing it is we're coming in and providing lunch at lunchtime. And teachers give up their lunch hour and come listen to us. And then they can drop in and have one on one chats with us as well, go through issues or things they want to work on. 

Yeah, me and my colleagues, we're really seeing everything. You get complete, like, AI is bad. It should not have-- it doesn't have any place in education. Let's go back. Let's do pen and paper. So nobody's going to be cheating a lot. 

A lot of worry over plagiarism which I experienced last year as an English teacher. Students, they can just plug stuff into ChatGPT and spit it out. So there's going to be a shift in education because of AI. It's having that impact. 

The whole system has to look at, how do we deal with this? How do we adapt? How do we change? And what's the best way to do that? And so our school board has been pretty proactive and is, I'd say, leading the charge in a lot of ways on the AI front. 

Mostly, I'd say thanks to our director of education, Tom D'Amico. Shout out there. But there's a lot of work to be done, a lot of learning. And so when we come in-- I think a lot of the fear is from the unknown. 

All I've seen of AI is students using this for plagiarism. So trying to show teachers, OK, there is some good side to it as well. Can I use a Harry Potter analogy? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, yeah. For sure with me and I'm sure many people in the audience as well. 

BRETT WALKER: I think of it like a wand. A wand itself is powerful, but it can't do anything. And that wand is neither good nor bad. But a wand in the hand of a witch or a wizard, if that wizard or witch is using it for good, it turns that wand into something powerful that can be used for good. In the hands of somebody who's going to use it for evil, well, that turns that wand into a tool of evil. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, that's incredible. And I'm talking to an English teacher. So I can ask you, was that a metaphor or analogy? 

BRETT WALKER: That's an analogy there. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's an analogy, OK. I still get mixed up between the two. I know I use the term wrong. OK, cool. That was a really great analogy because-- so the idea is that teachers have the opportunity to help the kids not become Voldemort and become more the Harry Potters, or the Dumbledore's, or whatever on the good side of using the magic. 

BRETT WALKER: And the key to that is education, is teaching students. If we say we're not going to touch AI, they're going to experiment on their own. They're going to-- and if they're doing it unguided in their basements, that's not the best place for learning. Usually, the best place is with trained educators, I would say. 

And so if we have teachers learn how to use it properly, ethically, humanely, all the right reasons-- and those are the guiding principles that our board has established, then they can use it in their lives in the proper way when they go out like you in the workplace. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it. 

BRETT WALKER: And the students that learn how to use it properly, effectively are going to have an advantage when they get out of schooling and education because they have this skill. They have this ability. 

And the students who don't learn how to use it properly or effectively, they're going to be at a disadvantage, I'd m because the workforce in 5, 10 years when they're coming out of school-- most workforces are going to be employing AI in some aspect, I'm assuming. I'm speculating. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, I would think so. I mean, I'm certainly seeing it now. And of course, it's a slow ramp up, but it is a slow ramp up. I don't think organizations are using it to its full range of capabilities. 

Some industries-- I know energy is using it quite a bit. And I know customer service is using it quite a bit. We all deal with chatbots all the time online. But I still don't think they've scratched the surface of what's possible. 

But I love that way you're thinking about it. It's this idea that educators have this ability to influence young people, to use it for good. And this recognition that if you don't give them some parameters and give them some guidance, it's more likely they will either not use it or use it for not productive purposes. 

And it really is about making them competitive and making sure they have the skills to thrive in the future. And if they don't, somebody else will be learning and will be adapting. And they just need it to be competitive. 

BRETT WALKER: Totally. Did Nerissa tell you about my use of AI with her? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: She did. And I didn't fully understand the application, but I know the reaction. You tell me your side of it. 

BRETT WALKER: OK, I'll tell you my side. So basically, her task was to take this a big, long document that had all this information with hyperlinks to put into a Google Calendar. And it was a whole year's worth of stuff. 

And so she was manually transferring one thing over at a time. And she hadn't even got to the hyperlinks. I'm like, that's going to take a long time. So I said, I think Gemini could do that. 

And Nerissa and Nadia, another coworker, were like, I don't know, Ken. I don't know. And my thing is always, let's try it. Let's see what we can do. Can it do it? Can it not do it? I don't know. 

So I played with different prompts. And at first, it was doing it, but not really. And it wasn't spitting it out just right. And I'm like, I like a challenge. I like a puzzle. So I worked at it for about an hour. 

And in an hour, I was able to get it to do what we wanted it to do. But it took a lot of tweaking and a lot of weird things to play with it. And then in another hour, I was able to extract the data and put it into the format that would work to get it back into the calendar. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So that's two hours? 

BRETT WALKER: Two hours. And Nerissa, at that point, had spent well over a week on it. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: She'd already spent a week and she was far from being done? 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Fascinating. So the power of that just in itself is obvious. The question I have, though, is because it was your two hours and you saved her the weeks, which is a good start. 

So what I'm curious is, what do you think it would take for Nerissa or somebody like her to actually learn what you did as step one and two, learn how to solve problems like you did as the next level? What are you thinking about that? 

BRETT WALKER: Well, starting with basics. Starting with prompt crafting. And that's usually when we were working with PD with teachers. We'll start with some basic prompts. How do you talk to AI? You can't just say, AI, go do this. It needs to be in a specific way, with a lot of detail. And then we're changing, tweaking it to make it work better. 

Another example, a teacher today, a phys ed, an AD, an athletic director was planning a badminton tournament. And she said, I want something that's going to help me save time. I have this many teams, this many courts. 

I want it to spit out a schedule so that all the teams are playing and they don't have more than one break at a time. I'm like, OK, well, AI should be able to do that. I put it into Gemini, it didn't work. 

It said, oh, yeah, I'm doing it, but it wasn't. I could see the same teams were off three times in a row. I tried ChatGPT. I tried fine tuning the prompt, nothing would work. 

Another guy was there. So I was busy. I said, OK, you work with her. And so he went. And he was able to get it to work. I don't know how he did it in the end. But yeah, AI is a funny thing, where you do have to really learn how to work with it. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And so that's really it. It's the teaching a person to fish angle. So once they buy in, OK, this is worth it. Then it is about learning the skills, and the language, and the way to talk. 

One thing I was thinking of and it's prompted by your English and arts background is, also when I was in high school, I was very interested in English, and drama, and creative writing, and all of those things. 

And lately, one of the things I do with my clients, particularly large, complex training programs-- oftentimes I'll have clients saying, OK, but it's an intangible, right? What I'm selling is an intangible. It's not a hard good. 

And so what you're selling is the idea that at the end of our experience together, their people will be able to do things differently. And therefore, their organization will be doing things differently. And they'll be impacting their customers differently. 

So one of my clients said to me, I'm having trouble describing to our leadership team that's making the decision on this program what will great look like once we're done. 

And so I said, I think I could write a story using your organization, change the names, but characters in your company, your products, the types of organizations you deal with. And I think I could tell a story of what great could look like. 

And I went back into that world of creative writing and said, OK, what do I want the story structure to be? And what are the prompts I would need to ask AI to-- I don't want to just write one thing and have it create a whole story. I want to build a story because I want to react to the parts of it that it's creating at the same time. 

And so I did that. And I wrote what turned out to be an 11 page story that I had to peel back. And I showed it to the client. And they said, yes, exactly. And she read it. Her boss read it. 

And it eventually turned out that they didn't have to share the story with anybody else because they got it so much that then they could articulate it in the company as to what great looks like. 

But that is an example of a really great impact. But it connects the dots between creative writing and being able to think like an artist and tell a story and all those things, but it was a very powerful application for me. 

Anyway, those kinds of things that get me really, really excited. I could see, just by your face-- my audience can't see your face, but that was intriguing to you as well. 

BRETT WALKER: Totally, yeah. Different ways to communicate are fascinating. Yeah, to connect that for what would great look like in education. Teachers are-- they're busy. They are worked hard like marking, prepping, planning. 

So often with AI it's like, how can this save us time in the week and the day so we have more time to work with students, we have more time to be with our family? And if what we're showing is not saving them time, where it's making things more difficult then what's the point? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So that's the what's in it for them angle for teachers to get them to embrace this, that actually it'll make their life a little bit easier. 

BRETT WALKER: That's the goal. That's the hope. And maybe it can innovate in some ways too. If I can jump back to your creative writing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yes. 

BRETT WALKER: So I like dabbling in writing myself. It's one of the things got into English teaching. When I started using I with my own writing, that's when I was like, OK, this can be a game changer. 

Because at first I was like, OK, how good is it? And I tried out a few. And they were pretty generic. But then I started finding some other ones that were a little more sophisticated. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Other tools? 

BRETT WALKER: Other tools, yeah. And when they were able to give me targeted, direct feedback of plot holes in my story of character development. When they were providing rich feedback that I could use to improve my own writing, I was like, maybe I could use this with students. 

And so last year, I tested it out with grade 9s writing essays. And I said, hey, we're going to try AI feedback. And the students were like, OK, sure. And they'd write their essay. And then I'd run it through. Here's feedback. 

For me, it's going to take me weeks to get back to you on this. I'll give you AI feedback. It's from AI. I'll tell you that right away. You can use that to improve your writing if you want. And for me it was just, I can give you support immediately instead of waiting on me for hours of time. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's a beautiful example because you would never get to that level of feedback that would help them. But using this productivity tool, you can actually do that. And really, they go and do the work of changing their writing based on the feedback they got. And they learn something along the way. That's a beautiful example of leverage, using it for leverage. 

OK, you're an innovator. That's an innovative way to use it in your work. Have you come across any other teachers that are innovating and using it in interesting ways that they came to you and said, here's what I did for my class? Or is that not happening quite yet? 

BRETT WALKER: Oh, my god, it's happening all over the place. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Give me one example of something that blew you away. 

BRETT WALKER: Oh, my god. Something that blew me away. This wasn't in our list of questions, by the way. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's OK. 

BRETT WALKER: No, I'm just kidding. It's a great question. Pretty much every time I meet with a group of teachers, somebody shows me something where I'm like, oh, that's cool. I hadn't thought of it that way. 

I'm just trying to think the last two days, something somebody showed me. My two co-consultants, Heather Bilder and Julian Daher, shout outs there. 

They show me things every day because they've been working at this longer than I have. And they're like fully involved. Every week, there's something new that somebody has found, or done, or tried. 

They're working with other teachers all the time. I'm working with a group of English teachers at the moment. And we're testing out how can we use AI ethically in an English classroom because that's-- English is one of those subjects where it's like, this is going to disrupt us the most. 

It's easy to spit out essays with this. So I'm really excited to see what we come up with there. Yesterday at Frank Ryan, I was working with a teacher, Shaun Forster. And he's like, OK, mentor texts. I like mentor texts. 

But I want something for grade 7 level because that's who I'm working with right now. And we're looking at a program called School AI, which can create customized chatbots. 

And so we said, well, let's play with it. Let's try it. Can it create mentor texts, specifically? And so put in a prompt. OK, here's the level of student. Here's what we want. We want you to create sample sentences paragraphs. Let them pick the genre. 

We tried it. I started playing with it. I'm like, OK, this is pretty cool. And then I went to a school today. I shared that with another teacher. And we're going to test it out with students. 

And so basically what it does is it creates-- they pick the genre. It gives them a sample sentence or short paragraph that they can model. And then it will give them feedback as they keep writing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it. That's another great example. What it makes me think of is, last year-- every year I try to take on a new thing to learn something that makes me uncomfortable. So last year the theme was improv. So I was taking a lot of improv courses. 

And so as I'm preparing for our final performance, which is like our class project, our final performance, one of the things you have to do is prepare a number of characters and carry them in your head so that you can draw on them, not just the character, what's their motive, what's their life history, what's their personality, what motivates them so you can just draw on that immediately. 

And so I decided to play with AI. And I said I'm going to prepare for this performance in improv. Can you provide me with five characters that are different, with different motivations, different generations, and tell me different characteristics of them. 

So it spit it out. I read it. I read it. I carried it in the back of my head. And what was interesting is when I was in the moment for improv, I didn't actually draw on any of those characters, but I drew on some other amalgam of. 

But the character-- the work of doing that actually helped me prepare. So now I think of creative writing and you're wanting to create a story. And yes, maybe you have the era. And you've got the setting and you've got a bunch of other things figured out, but maybe you want some thoughts on characters that you might put in the story. 

And that would be a really good prompt to think about, OK, let me think about how do I add to my story as opposed to I'll still come up with a story, but just give me a few sparks to make my story a little different, or interesting, or I get writer's block and I have an opportunity there. Anyway, we're just going off on this. 

I do really want to get to this topic. You identified that there's teachers innovating all the time. So that suggests to me that there are teachers in teachers college right now that are experiencing AI in the world because that's just what happens. 

And probably very few of them are purists and say, no, I'm not going to touch AI. I'm sure they're all interacting with it in some way. So those teachers are going to come into the education system primed and ready. And that will drive change because they will bring that into their work. 

While you do your work and influence the teachers that are already there and help the teachers already there, this is going to happen. This is my prediction. So now, let's back the track up and say, that's going to happen to the kids in school right now. 

And those kids in school are going to end up in workplaces in the next 10 years or less. Let's just play around here a little thought experiment. How do you think workplaces are going to change? 

What comes to the top of your mind as far as, what do you think is going to be happening in workplaces with this next generation who's going to be literate getting into the workplace? 

BRETT WALKER: That's a great question. And yeah, it's all pure speculation. I'm hoping AI use is used for the right purposes, streamlining things, making things more efficient so that we can spend our time really on the bigger issues. 

There's a lot of menial data tasks that can be done relatively simply with AI. You want to make sure you have the accuracy. One of the issues with AI is it doesn't have 100% accuracy. But I've heard of a lot of fields-- medical industry could revolutionize that. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Diagnostics, you're right. Diagnostics and finding new cures and treatments for things that haven't been solved before. 

BRETT WALKER: Computing industry. I'm a video gamer myself. And AI has been a part of video games from the get go. But generative AI within video game systems could be like the next big thing. 

I did see a little demo of it where it will adapt and adjust conversations based on the individual player, how they're playing the game. I'm like, that has the potential to revolutionize gaming. So hopefully I'm around to see that. There's also dangers to-- every AI movie is disaster movie. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It goes to dark side for sure. 

BRETT WALKER: There's a book called The Electric State. It's a beautiful-- it's got beautiful graphics all throughout it, but it's a written story. And they're just making it into a movie. 

But the basic premise of it is the world has just succumbed to virtual reality. And so it's about this-- the main characters walking around with a robot trying to find her brother. 

And everywhere you go, it's just people standing with these machines on their head because they're all just in a virtual place. So that's the extreme. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, for sure. But there are movies like that. I mean, obviously, Terminator. I mean, that was the big movie when I was in my teens. And Vanilla Sky with Tom Cruise, that's another one that. And those were years ago. So very, very prescient. 

So here's a couple of things I'm thinking of around the workplace. And I'm thinking a bit strategically, but I imagine that young people coming to the workplace that haven't experienced a problem before now have access to the experience of predecessors, experts that can give them perspective on how to think through a problem or decision they haven't framed. 

I'm imagining things like new product launch, what are some of the things I can think of, I should be thinking about. So that's one thing that I think is there. And the other is scenario planning. 

We just talked about the future is uncertain. And there was a time where-- even when I started my career, that you could make a decision and you knew that the outcome was going to be one or one of three things. That's not the case anymore. So using AI for scenario planning is another one. 

Another one that I'm playing with right now and teaching others to play with is using AI to build empathy for the end customer. So one of the things that marketing professionals do oftentimes when they're designing campaigns is they develop personas that represent an average customer, or character personality, all that stuff. 

It makes them think through that person's life and the problem that they're facing. But more people can start doing that now. And you can start thinking about, OK, the customer I serve-- who's the customer they serve? And what's going on for them? And you can create these personas. 

So when you are a person that's used to selling a product, you can now start thinking about the life of the person that is going to be eventually using that product. And I think it can spark empathy. So those are the kinds of things I think about that will be available to young people. 

BRETT WALKER: I love your optimism. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, I can't help it. 

BRETT WALKER: That's nice. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I can't help it. So I do think those are the good things. But as you said, there are also some downsides. Which of the downsides, do you think, you're most worried about? 

BRETT WALKER: Getting in the hands of the people that are doing malicious things already, like the idea of stealing your voice, your identity. Using that to scam people. The deepfake. 

People growing up now, they have to be more critical than our generation was because there's so-- you can't trust anything anymore that you're reading, even what you're seeing and hearing. 

Unless you're talking to somebody face to face, you're not always 100% sure that it's real. And so you have to constantly be saying, is this real? Is this accurate? Where's this coming from? So asking all these questions. 

So that's another big education piece to this is teaching young people how to be critical of what we're consuming because we see what happens when mistrust in media is created in the world. 

But I like how you're talking about empathy because the lack of empathy you see on social media, even in real media, it's just-- as a human being, it's sad, really. Yeah, if we can use-- if it can be used in positive ways to help build that, that'd be amazing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Other downsides I think about-- so yes, it's the people doing-- the people with bad intentions have another tool. Something I do think about is, you're reading a lot of the stories about AI relationships. 

And some of the things that have evolved partly because of the pandemic. People spent a lot of time alone. Young people had to interact and didn't really have much interaction with people. 

But it is a growing trend, loneliness and solitude of people. On one hand, AI is nice for some of them because there's a really lovely AI called Personal Intelligence, PI for short. I don't know if you've heard of that one. 

But design parameters or kindness, empathy, humor. And so you can imagine somebody having a conversation and feeling really engaged, less lonely. But the reality is it's a robot they're talking to. 

And so while on the surface that's nice that they have engagement, the reality is that what does that do for their social skills or their desire to engage with people in person live? And so I do worry about that being a downside. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, and we've seen how cell phones, smart phones have had an impact. Social media has had an impact. Mental health is important part to this. You've seen the movie-- have you seen the movie Her? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: No, I resist some of those Black Mirror dystopia type movies. They just make me sad. But I should watch them. 

BRETT WALKER: That one's a really-- it's a really well done movie. But yeah, it goes into that whole relationship taken to the next level like idea. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, one of the things you said that I think we should put on the table here is we need to teach, not just young people, everybody, but let's start with young people because that's your audience, critical thinking. 

That has always been true. I studied critical thinking in the '80s in university. But we have to really be deliberate about critical thinking in the education system. 

I do think we have to be deliberate in building the practice of interpersonal engagement, and empathy, and all of those things. And if the education system isn't able to do that fast enough as AI evolves, then I do think it will be something left to employers to think about. 

How do they make sure that people coming out into their careers, into the workplaces have the critical thinking skills, have the interpersonal relationship skills, have the empathy skills? 

And maybe that's something we can think about that has to be partnered with advancements in AI technology, the human stuff. 

BRETT WALKER: Absolutely. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, Brett, we've had a pretty good conversation. It's gone very fast. 

BRETT WALKER: Oh, god, yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: We've already been talking for about 45 minutes. Just maybe final insights. You started talking about ideal future state here. Fast forward in your role, even two years from now, what would be something you would love to see that is in-- you feel is within reach? 

You're not there yet, but it's maybe even a little bit ambitious, but it's within reach. What would it look like? How would teachers be using AI on a regular basis? What would be the thing? 

BRETT WALKER: Honestly, I think healthy balance. If you go too much to any end of the spectrum, you want to strike that healthy balance where we're still interacting with humans. We're still getting outside. We're still being physical. We're still creating stuff. 

But then AI is-- there is a piece. It's a helper. It's supporting. One thing I don't think we got to mention was the ability of AI to help level the playing field for some students. Students who need support with specific learning needs. 

One other bot we were able to make was helping a student, a specific student who had a language disability where he could put his ideas into it and it would help him formulate those into sentences and paragraphs. 

And it started out as just a tiny little thing, but it's something that's snowballed because it had been effective. Students who don't have the same support at home, we can create study bots, support bots. And a lot of teachers are using that right now. 

So using it in the right ways to level the playing field, help those who need the help, who need the support that might not otherwise get it. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, that's awesome. That's a great vision. And I really do believe that the kinds of things you're talking about, this will be one of those catch fire things. This is going to continue to take off. 

And thank goodness for people like you that are trying to be proactive and thinking about, how do we make sure it's being used for good? How do we make sure it makes a positive impact on people's lives? 

And I'm really glad-- I feel better knowing there's people like you spending time thinking about these things. So thank you for that. 

BRETT WALKER: Yeah, no, it was a pleasure talking with you. And I look forward to seeing you again in the future. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Thank you. And I'll be watching closely. And I'll be getting updates from Nerissa all the time now. And maybe you can get her to talk more about AI with me. And so it'll be a two way thing in our household. 

BRETT WALKER: OK, we'll start some lessons, some weekly lessons. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Awesome, thank you. Brett, have a great evening. Really a pleasure talking to you. 

BRETT WALKER: OK, thank you. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That time flew for Brett and I in the conversation. So we really illuminated several key insights for leaders and educators and all of us navigating the impact of AI on society. 

So many insights, but I'm going to focus on three. The first was preparing for the positive use of AI. Brett and I discussed that both educators and leaders need to actively prepare students and their people to use AI responsibly. 

AI has powerful applications. And we must take advantage of that. But we must approach it with creativity, ethical considerations, and a focus on constructive uses. Just as any tool can be misused, AI requires deliberate instruction, deliberate preparation, and examples to encourage positive impact. 

The second insight for me was the importance of developing critical thinking and interpersonal communication skills. As AI technology advances, it's vital to invest in the development of interpersonal and critical thinking skills. 

With the rise of digital interactions, there's a growing risk of isolation. We're already seeing it today. As a result of COVID, many young people are lacking or limited in their interpersonal communication and social engagement skills. 

We need to support soft skills such as empathy, effective communication to ensure that the technology of AI does not replace human connection. 

Alongside, we need to make sure that young people and employees today develop critical thinking skills so they can evaluate the outputs of AI. They can understand biases. They can interpret properly. And also, so they can structure thoughtful prompts and instructions to get meaningful results from AI. 

The third insight's about embracing AI for competitiveness. We explored the importance of embracing AI to remain competitive, both for individuals in the workforce, and in society, as well as our country, Canada and beyond. 

The workforce and business need to be forward thinking, leveraging AI to remain relevant. And ignoring AI's influence could limit our competitive edge. As other organizations and parts of the world integrate it rapidly, we need to stay on top of things. 

By embracing AI with a sense of ethics, and responsibility, and proper skill development on the soft side, we can foster an environment where innovation and caution can coexist. 

Thanks for joining us for this exploration of AI and its implications. I hope the conversation inspires you to think more critically, to be a little bit more creative and brave if you're not using AI today, but really shape your approach and be conscious about it. Thanks so much and have a great day. Thank you for listening. 

Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. 

If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you. 

To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, visit oceanbluestrategic.com summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivey Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast. And an exceptional thanks to my favorite Indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast. 

Discover more about them on @LNCconnected. And enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode. 

[LATE NIGHT CONVERSATIONS, "CHAOS"]

I can't flow like this no more 

No, I can't make it 

But far behind my eyes 

Mediation, suffocation, it'll break me 

Information in disguise 

When your eyes finally found mine 

You were there 

But I'm defined by the chaos in my mind 

I believe what I perceive is a weave 

Tearing at the seams 

And I wonder what's behind 

And my ears are bleeding 

And the reason is in the logic of the season 

Taking the place and from my soul and leaving me to die 

And I feel the lace in [INAUDIBLE] like racing on stationary 

Animation taking me from the purpose of my life