Window of Tolerance: The Navigating Disruption Podcast

In this episode:

In this episode of the Navigating Disruption Podcast, Raheena Lalani Dayha, a mediator, educator, and former lawyer, discusses the Window of Tolerance and its significance for leaders and managers. Raheena shares how this framework helps individuals understand emotional regulation under stress and offers practical advice for managing personal and team dynamics in high-pressure situations. By understanding their own limits and attuning to others, leaders can foster psychological safety and build stronger connections within their teams.  

 The conversation touches on key themes such as:  

• The effects of dysregulation in leadership scenarios
• Addressing power imbalances
• The value of recognizing what you don't know
• Navigating the attention economy
• The importance of empathy and curiosity in effective leadership

This episode is packed with valuable lessons for leaders and anyone seeking to build better relationships through emotional intelligence and understanding.  

Host: Shakeel Bharmal, Executive Coach – The Ivey Academy
Guest: Raheena Lalani Dahya - a mediator, educator, and former lawyer

Other ways to listen:

• Apple Podcast
• Spotify Podcasts

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About The Navigating Disruption Podcast

On The Navigating Disruption Podcast, we engage with intriguing professionals from diverse backgrounds to explore how leaders can create a more meaningful impact in these challenging times. We delve into our guest’s personal and career experiences to uncover connections between life and leadership in complexity and ambiguity. 

In an era where the pace of change and uncertainty permeates every aspect of life, predicting the outcomes of our decisions and actions is increasingly complex. This podcast offers valuable insights, reflections, and practical advice to help leaders, teams, and organizations survive and thrive amidst the disruption. Join us as we navigate these turbulent waters together. 

Note: The podcast is not produced by The Ivey Academy. The Navigating Disruption Podcast is produced and edited by Shakeel Bharmal and Lindsay Curtis. Music and lyrics courtesy of Late Night Conversations.

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About the Host

Shakeel Bharmal is an Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Instructor with The Ivey Academy. From his early career in sales and marketing, strategy consulting and general management to his more recent roles as a chief operating officer and leadership coach, Shakeel has always been curious about how leaders can use their humanity and professional acumen to make a positive impact on the people around them. In this podcast, as a lifelong learner, he strives to use that curiosity to serve his listeners. 

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Episode Transcript

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: In my past leadership roles, I've certainly found myself in situations where I've had conversations with-- whether it be colleagues, a senior leader, or even external stakeholders, where I've been emotionally triggered. That emotion doesn't always come out in the interaction, but sometimes it has. And even if it doesn't come out in the interaction, it's really tough to manage it, to make sure that the engagement and the conversation goes smoothly. 

It's even tougher when you're a leader managing a team meeting where perhaps there's been somebody in the team that's gone through some kind of trauma that you don't know anything about, or there's some kind of conflict or emotional triggering going on between a couple of people on the team. Somebody could be aggressive. Some could be a little timid. But it's difficult when you've got these dynamics, emotions, personalities, and psychology comes into play. 

So that's why I'm really delighted to introduce my guest today, Raheena Lalani Dayha. She is a mediator, an amazing mediator by trade. But she's been educated as a lawyer and really educated as a lawyer all over the world. Her impressive range of expertise blends neuroscience, psychology, and the intricate dynamics of conflict resolution. 

I first met Raheena during my training as a community mediator, and her ability to create meaningful learning experiences left a lasting impression on me. And I knew I wanted to have her as a guest. One concept that particularly intrigued me in her training and in our further conversations was the Window of Tolerance, which is a powerful framework for understanding how we regulate emotions and engage with others and actually understand how we might dysregulate others' emotions and how they dysregulate ours, especially in high-stakes situations. 

In this episode, we explore how Raheena applies this framework to her work, along with her fascinating journey from law to mediation and deep dive into applied neuroscience, and her insights on how our understanding of neuroscience and psychology and this framework can help leaders in their interactions to be more effective. 

This is a conversation rich with actionable insights for leaders, managers, anybody that has to engage with other people, and might be even helpful for your personal relationships, anybody that's trying to navigate complex human interactions, really. So grab your favorite hot beverage and join us as we delve into the art and science of connection, curiosity, and managing conflict. Enjoy the conversation. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

Welcome to The Navigating Disruption Podcast. I'm Shakeel Bharmal, your host. As the founder of OceanBlue Strategic, an executive coach at the Ivey Academy, and a partner with The Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking. 

Here, we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings. 

Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people, as I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau rivers. It's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place for hundreds, or probably thousands of years. Where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. Raheena, how are you? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I'm so good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I'm so pleased that we finally got here. I've been thinking about this conversation for several, several months, and it's great that we can be here. By this point, my audience would have heard a little intro already with a little bit of your background, so let's just jump into the conversation as if they know a little bit about you. But of course, we'll get the depth and color from you. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Sure. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Just a real quick background for the audience about how we know each other, because I typically like to have people on my podcast that I have come across, worked with, know, that something has sparked, and I would really like to spend another hour with them just talking. And this just platform allows for that. So let's give context to the listeners on that. 

About a year and a half ago, I was appointed as a volunteer mediator in our community. And I was blown away with the amount of training we have to get when we become volunteer mediators. And you were one of the trainers for our training that I took early or maybe last year. Super engaged. Your expertise is phenomenal. 

I really, really enjoyed all of the lessons you learned and the experience you created in the room. And so I just knew I wanted to have a conversation with you to understand more and to learn more. And here it is, several months, maybe even a year later, here we are having this conversation. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: It's been fun getting to know you over the series of trainings, and I know you say that there's a lot of training. But mediation-- I would argue we almost don't deliver enough training. It's one of those fields where you have to use your mind and your heart and your gut. 

And so there are so many different pieces that pull together to create the skill set or to cultivate the skill set for people to truly get a sense of how to host meaningful conflict conversations that are productive. And so as much as you've had many, many hours to train, I can't thank you enough for your dedication to the field and to working with us and to picking up the skill set. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I come at it with so much gratitude. I'm one of those people that loves to learn, always loves to learn. And for some reason, I get blown away when something really does, like, surprises me. 

And I would say the training I received and the depth and the complexity and the richness of the experience created by you, and other trainers as well, it really did expand my horizons and got me to look at the human condition from a completely different perspective. And so I wanted to share this with my listeners. I just wanted to talk to you more. So it was great to do this. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Hey, I'm always happy to talk with you more. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Well, let's get into learning more about you a little bit, stuff that perhaps I've learned. But I always pick up something new when you tell the story. First of all, quite simply, just so our audience knows you, just tell us about your profession, what you do right now. And then I'll ask some questions about that. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: So I'm a mediator by trade. I'm a lawyer by background. I don't practice law right now, though I might help out on a legal file here or there. What I mean by a mediator by trade is I facilitate conversations with people who are in conflict with a view to assist them in resolving that conflict. 

I work predominantly with litigants, so people who have open lawsuits. And what I do is I facilitate negotiations and conversations. Maybe those conversations are in the same room. Maybe they're in separate rooms. 

The idea here is to provide people with an opportunity to resolve their conflicts in a way that works for them, in a way where there's not a judge making decisions about their lives or their children's lives. And sometimes, people don't have the skill set. Or sometimes, the nature of the conflict is complex, or it has shades or depths or color that mean that you need an external person to come in and assist. 

Now, I'm also something called an educating professional, so the professional part is that I'm a practicing mediator. The educating part-- I'm a professor at Humber Polytechnic, where I wrote and deliver a course called Serving Vulnerable Persons and Managing Unideal Circumstances in ADR. 

I think the area that you and I really connected on was, I look at applied interpersonal neurobiology and neuroscience to conflict resolution. So my very first mediation accreditation was all the way back in 2009, and that was at the School of Psychotherapy and Counseling Psychology at Regent's College. And it was put together by lawyers and psychologists, and it was a psychology-backed model of mediation. 

And I have been working through my research on understanding neuroscience and understanding layering on top of psychology at the level of the brain, at the level of the nervous system, What's going on in conflict? and then understanding-- taking that theory and really saying, OK, well, how do we put this into strategy? How do we start using these in applied manners? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right. It seems like you're a person driven by curiosity. And so I'm going to be I'm going to grossly oversimplify what I've heard just so that the listeners can track a little bit. So what I've heard is that you are trained as a lawyer, but you've come into this world of mediation and conflict resolution. 

And not only your own practice, but you're heavily engaged in both research and education of not just future mediators, but people that need to understand mediation and how it fits into whatever profession they're doing and in a broader context. And I particularly found it interesting what you're talking about is the last little bit around the connection between neuroscience and psychology and the integration of psychology and law, because that's something I think a lot about, is I think a lot about leadership. 

And so how does psychology and neuroscience and the arts and self-awareness, self-reflection, and the dynamics between people affect the role of leaders, particularly in times that are so complex? You described social media and the online conversations. There's so many more complexities, geopolitical risks, some of the social things that are going on in the world. There's so much complexity going on that the level of depth you're getting into these issues is quite incredible. 

And most of what you talked about I didn't even know was a thing until I started to know you. And every time I talk, I'm learning new layers. So let me actually come back to a very-- maybe it's a simple question. I'm not sure. 

I have two questions. At what point did you decide that you wanted to study law? And then what led you to say you want to go from law, not leave law, but you wanted to dig deeper into mediation and conflict resolution? How did that journey go? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Did I want to study law? I was given a very, very narrow range of careers that I would be supported in. The law was on that list, and psychology was decidedly not. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I see. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And so working within my constraints at the time and knowing where my strengths were, I picked law. And I had a very mobile childhood. And so something that was really important to me, having lived in four countries before I was 18, was I needed to do something that was international in nature. 

And for me, back when I lived in the UK as a young person-- because I did part of my adulthood in the UK and then part of my childhood in the UK-- was back then, it was part of the European Union. So I wrote European and international law because law was something that I was going to be supported in. And if I was going to do law, then I wanted to prespecialize in something that I knew was going to work for me. 

So I wrote European international law. And then, at the time, I was very interested in war crimes. So I think there's always been this natural attraction to when atrocity happens. What's going on there, and how do we solve it? I think I've always been curious about that question. 

An atrocity doesn't in this way-- and I mean, bear in mind, we're thinking about this from the context of a 17-year-old girl. Atrocity, to my mind then, probably what I would have phrased as atrocity then is what I mean trauma now. I think I was always interested in traumatic events and how we work with them and what we do to mitigate them. And what do we do once they've occurred? So I think I've always had that natural curiosity. 

And then for me, I attended an alternative dispute resolution course, and the first class that was on mediation, I fell in love. I've never really had love at first sight in the romantic way, but, oh, my goodness, that from that first class, I knew this is who I am, and this is where I'm going. 

And it was this moment where I promised myself-- I went full steam ahead, got my first accreditation, and I promised myself, when I have the opportunity to become a mediator, I am going to do that. Kind of like you hear people talking about falling in love with their childhood sweetheart and just knowing when they can marry them. They can. That was me in mediation. It was an instant fit. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So tell me, what was it? What was that-- I mean, if you can remember a moment or a specific idea or a topic or something that just immediately said, oh my God, this is me. I have found my place. What was that? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I think it was-- we did a lot of experiential learning. And in there, everything was so very intuitive to me. And what wasn't intuitive was fulfilling to learn. Got it. Like, it was those moments where I was having aha moments. 

Or there was this case study where one of the legal shades was, you needed a judge to sign off because there was a child who was being impacted. And I missed that. And I just thought, oh, I'm so glad I know that now. And there were other pieces of knowledge I'd pick up that were either boring or didn't feel relevant or were tedious. 

But every piece of information I was getting here made me think, that would make me a better human. That would make me a more thoughtful person. That could really help me support people who are struggling. And that fascination, it's never disappointed in all these years. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, amazing. I love it. I love it. And obviously, we don't do video in this podcast, but I can see your face. And just seeing that excitement, it's almost like you're reliving that moment as you're telling me this. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And I would say that what you're describing is very similar to how I ended up in what I do as a profession now, but I didn't discover that until I was 50. And I'm still discovering it. So gosh, I mean, you've been blessed to actually find that very early in your tenure because I'm looking at all the things you've done and all the areas you're exploring. I mean, that requires a lot of energy and mental capacity, which you have right now. 

[CHUCKLING] 

I'm not sure I have it at my age, but I'm working on it. That's really awesome. That's fantastic. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: It's funny when you were saying I gave a large answer to what I do. I think it's because when you're a researcher and an academic, you're finding new things. Or you're looking at a different angle. 

When you're an educator, you're finding ways to pass that knowledge on or at least facilitate room for people to accrue different understanding. And then when you're practicing it, you're seeing how it's working in practice. So that triangle is just-- it does take a level of dedication and truly love-- 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, no, absolutely. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: --to stay in it and to keep that passion going. But I do love it, and I'm so lucky I found it so young. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It comes through, and I think that's probably why I found your session so engaging. And I had a lot of those same emotions that some of this is coming intuitive, but some of it was actually a real stretch but stuff that I wanted to learn more and dig in. 

And I want to manage the length of this because we could probably spend all day talking about these things, so I'm going to transition very quickly to something specific that you talked about amongst the many things you shared with me over the many sessions that really got my imagination. I could see the applicability to what I do, and that was the Windows of Tolerance. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Could you share a little bit for my listeners, what is the Windows of Tolerance? and how it's applied in your setting. And then I'd love to talk about how it could apply in leadership. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah, sure. So the Window of Tolerance was first conceptualized by Daniel Siegel, and the idea that it's grown into is there's a beautiful visual that's been created. And the idea here is I just want everyone to close their eyes, imagine a square, and then imagine a parabola going through that square. 

Inside that square, in the very middle of it, the way that I like to conceptualize it is this is where everything's awesome. Everything's going our way. We all know that feeling and can all connect to that feeling. When we're a little higher within that square, we're experiencing healthy stress. And this is the sort of activating stress. It's the thing that pushed me to do my law school exams or study for them. Was it stressful? Yes. By the time it was over, I was proud of myself. I knew I worked hard. 

Towards the bottom of that square is more depleting type stress but, again, a healthy stress. So an example I give when I'm teaching that is, I had to have a very difficult conversation about a loved one's estate. Was it difficult? Yes. Was I proud of myself afterwards? Yes. Was I tired afterwards? Definitely. But it was a healthy stress that allowed me to propel myself to do the things I needed to do. 

When we exceed that square at the top, this is what we call hyperdysregulation. So like the thyroids and glycemias, we have hyper and hypodysregulation. Hyperdysregulation can look like crying, screaming, yelling. It can look like red face, shaking. 

It can also look like a very calm exterior but seething on the inside. So think about a moment where you had a really difficult argument, or maybe some road rage, one of those sort of things. And then with hypos, where we exceed our square but down at the bottom. And this can look like slumped shoulders, flat affect, so a face that just looks completely with no emotion. I think "still faces" is a good way of explaining it. 

It can look like being hunched over. It can feel cold. Someone can say something and bam, you got fuzzy brain. Or bam, you're tired. It can look, again, calm on the outside, but on the inside, just completely numbing out. Now what-- 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Can I interrupt? Can I ask you a question here? Sorry, because I think it might be helpful for me and maybe others. What's the relationship with what you talked about at the top of the square and the bottom of the square with the simplified notion or fight or flight that we hear? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: That's exactly what I was going to take it. So with our Window of Tolerance, I want to just-- there's many different parts of the brain, but I'm just going to talk about three for now. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: At the back of our neck, we've got our brain stem. And that connects to the brain as we know it. If we just talk about three different parts, there's one area called the reptilian brain. It's around here. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I'll give you an image. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: You're pointing to the back of your head. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah, I am. I am. I'll give you an image you can post on your website. This is where we do fight, flight, breathing, eating, the basic things that we share with reptiles that, in the words of the kids today, alive's us. It's the stuff that keeps our physical body alive. 

Around the middle of our brain-- and I'm being very general and not terribly scientific here-- is where we have what's referred to as our mammalian brain. This is a lot of our social behavior, nursing our young. You'll notice mammals across the board, when they're babies, they have big eyes. And we find them cute. 

There's a reason. That cuteness is an evolution. So if we pick up that puppy, we're saying, I want to look after you, puppy, in the same way that we're doing that with babies. So we've evolved to take care of the young. A lot of our social behavior lives around here. 

And then at the front of our brain is where our prefrontal cortex lives. Some animals have prefrontal cortexes. We think we have the most complex one, though there's some theory out there saying that Dolphins might beat us. Just don't know. It's just a theory. 

For now, what we know about ourselves is this is where we do our thinking. This is where we do our philosophizing. This is where we do our rational work. When we are within that square, we are connected to that front of our brain. We can think. We can make rational choices. 

When we are outside of that square, we're feeling unsafe. And what that means is our limbic system can be at play, our fight and flight. Or our mammalian brain, which worries about our social behaviors, can engage and behave as if our relationships are at threat. And therefore has some fight or flight type mechanisms that play themselves out. 

And I think I talked to you about attachment theory in one of those classes. That's another good way of looking at it. So when we're thinking about this visually, you can think about, when you're inside the square, that's your window of tolerance for whatever the particular thing is. 

When you exceed it, you're not psychologically safe. So you can come to agreements. You can say things. We all remember saying a horrible thing in an argument or maybe, in that moment of road rage, shouting something. You can use your words. Even in hypodysregulation, you can use your words. 

But frankly, one of the reasons people like to negotiate their own agreements, one of the reasons mediation is such a popular field is because people, when they make their own decisions, they have better buy-in. And so they're more likely to comply with the agreement. But I say, not always. It only really works if they've made the agreement from a place of psychological safety, when they're prefrontally connected. 

When they are not, what tends to happen is that's when you get buyer's remorse. That's when you get people saying, I got bullied into the deal, or so-and-so was really aggressive. We've all heard those, and that goes to your leaders. Like, think about a sales pitch. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Totally. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And so when someone feels safe-- and this really goes down to our relationships, because if you think about a good sales maneuver, just taking it to that leadership piece, brands want brand loyalty. That means you want your followers to be prefrontally connected when they're making decisions about, because if they are making scared decisions about, they might buy in to you once or twice. 

But otherwise, if you're constantly scaring them into following you or working with you, you've gotten yourself into what I like to call the commerce of dysregulation, which looks a little bit like the politics of fear, except I actually think it's more nuanced than that. I think it's the politics of dysregulation. 

And so I think when we're thinking about our Windows of Tolerance, just one of those first things we can do is recognize what that behavior looks like in ourselves and in others. And notice, if someone's being dysregulated, is this a good way to foster good relationship with them? And those brands who have really strong followings, they're building good relationships. 

And the brands that want those more transactional quick sales where they don't care about the relationship, I think they might be more willing to engage in dysregulation. But there's also an ethics question there. And I don't think we fall on the side of ethics when we're dysregulating people into doing things we want. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right. OK, so let me just bring that connected directly to the specifics of leadership. And I'll speak from my own experience, but it could represent any of the people I coach or people that are in my leadership sessions. There are times when you are with an employee, having a conversation. There might have been some challenge or complexity, or somebody did something wrong. Or there's a history of behavior that's not productive or collaborative in the group. 

You can have a conversation with that individual, and sometimes that individual might say something that triggers you, that makes you angry as the leader. And you shift into this mode of very aggressive directive behavior very suddenly. And then the person might be intimidated or say, OK, I get it. I want to get out of this room. Let me just say whatever I need to say to get out of the room and walk away. And you, as a leader, thinks, finally, OK, the message has been sent. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: What you just described are two dysregulating people. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right, right, right. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: You just had a leader who dysregulated by hyperdysregulation. And then you had an employee who either hyperdysregulated or hypodysregulated and said, say whatever you need to say. So there's a great hand model. I know your listeners can't see this, but if they want to have a gander at the book Mindsight, I will give you the page reference. 

And in Mindsight, he shows us a model where you have the brain stem where the thumb is. And then when you close your fist around it, around here, we can pretend there's where mammalian brain is. And here's our prefrontal cortex. It's not the Olympics. This part, your brain stem, where your reptilian brain is, it's always going to win because that's your physical safety. 

Then, if this is soothed and it's OK, then your mammalian brain is going to take over because that's your relationship safety. And humans have safety in numbers. So what I'm hearing is there is a relational issue. Two people dysregulated, and one dysregulated. Maybe they had a threat towards their identity, or something came up that made them feel threatened. So they hyperdysregulated. That's being the leader. 

The other person may have responded to relationship safety or to what feels like physical safety because the brain can't tell the difference between an aggressive email and a saber tooth tiger. Just can't do it. So that's what I was hearing when you described that. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, it's a very common thing. And so that's what I think resonated for me when you first started talking about the Window of Tolerance and hypo and hyperdysregulation. I was imagining these scenarios that I certainly have found myself in over the years. It's through those experiences where I learned I wasn't a very good leader in that moment. 

Now, I didn't have the language of the understanding Windows of Tolerance, I know. But I was able to say, that wasn't really effective, because clearly nothing really changed. And that person therefore never came to me afterwards, and maybe that was a good thing because I didn't enjoy those conversations anyway. But in reality, I wasn't being a good leader. 

And so I learned from that through experience. But all of a sudden, when you look back on life and somebody gives you a construct, it's like, so that's what happened. And I learned to manage myself. And I learned that when somebody says that thing that triggers me, I need to stop and take a breath, think about how I'm feeling. And essentially, that process that I went through was me learning how to manage my window a little bit. And-- 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah-- 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: --so that's-- yeah. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: So fun fact-- it takes tens to get from the back of your brain from when you get that sensation, that emotion to the front of your brain. So sometimes, one of the easiest tricks is just buying yourself 10 seconds. Take a sip of water. Take a deep breath, and buy yourself the [BREATHES DEEPLY] 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Mm-hmm, exactly. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And if you do that, you'll at least have some time to process prefrontally. And I think that's one way. The other thing is learning to know when I'm dysregulated and then to find ways of self-regulating and self-soothing in those moments, or finding really business-appropriate ways to extract yourself from the situation until you are regulated and then to pick that up later. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, super helpful to understand the neuroscience of it, and that framework and construct I think is really, really an interesting way because, of course, when I'm talking to clients, or I'm doing a session-- I did a session last week with new managers preparing for their first leadership roles. And we talk about these ideas of, when you're feeling that stress, that anxiety, when somebody tells you that one of your employees did this, you want to go and correct the behavior. 

But let's think about how they're feeling and how you're feeling. And didn't use the language of Windows of tolerance, because I didn't really have it in my vernacular. But that's exactly what we're doing. And I think that neuroscience and understanding really, really does help clarify. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah, one of my favorite things about the Window of Tolerance-- so I'm always very quick to say, as mediators, we have trauma-informed practice. We're borrowing from the mental health space. But trauma-based services-- so those are the physicians and the mental health practitioners. There's an entire line of trauma-based therapy, which is around expanding one's window of tolerance. 

And one of the key ingredients behind that is mindfulness practice. And I'm reading some mindfulness neuroscience right now. And they are seeing with mindfulness practitioners that it's causing changes in the wiring of the brain. And for newer practitioners, it's up around in the prefrontal regions. And then for more intermediate practitioners, it's around the top of the brain where the right and left come together. 

And again, This is overgeneralized because I'm still reading and I'm still learning. So don't take it for accuracy. Go and educate yourself. And then for advanced practitioners, it actually changes the wiring of the brain where our sense of interconnectedness comes from. So when people have a very small window of tolerance around a particular thing, say there's a phobia, or say they witnessed a very traumatic event-- so I'm thinking about the van attack in Toronto a couple of years ago where someone was trying to kill people like me. 

Now, one of my workplaces is only two blocks from there, and a friend of mine panicked knowing that and was checking on me and saying, please tell me you're OK. Now, think about that van attack for two seconds. If I'm witnessing this, and I have the wherewithal to realize there's a pattern, and I'm someone this person wants to attack, I might later walk away with a very strong phobia of white vans because my life has been in threat. 

I could go to a mental health practitioner and say, I go into freeze mode or I hyper or hypodysregulate whenever I see a white van. It's really impacting my life. They can work with me using mindfulness practice to help me expand my window of tolerance around white vans. 

And so one of the things that I think is really important is know where we need to expand our window of tolerance and building a mindfulness practice to support enlarging our windows of tolerance, particularly because as leaders, people need us to be in our window. And we need to be in our window to be able to be considerate where somebody else is. But they need us to model that for them. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, it's fascinating because the interdependencies here or the co-dependencies here are fascinating here because-- so the scenario we just walked through was one-on-one conversation, boss/employee. Could be two coworkers. Doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't have to be a power structure. It could still play. 

But now I think about the role of a mediator in some of these family conflicts. One of the things that I've gathered and learned is that the role of the mediator is to understand what's happening on both sides of each party, from their windows of tolerance, and be able to then make the call to say, OK, let's intervene or manage the situation in a way that allows for both people to feel safe and engaged. 

But you yourself, as a mediator, are also a human being. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I got my own Window of Tolerance. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: --window of tolerance. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I do, and I have to manage that thing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: One party's behavior might trigger you in going-- right? And so how do you think about that? Because I want to bring an analog back to a leadership situation from that scenario. I'd love to hear your perspectives on that as a mediator. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah so I have a series of tips and strategies that I collated and that I teach to people. If I am towards the top-- so the first thing is a lot of somatic awareness. I need to know where I am in my window, and I need to be tapping into that. 

So if I feel my own heartbeat going up, if I notice I'm getting tense, the first thing I can do is say, if I'm getting tense, other people might be feeling tense because mirror neurons give us all of these really important environmental signals about what's happening relationally. And so I can trust-- that gut feeling actually comes from somewhere. It's mirror neurons setting you up for success. 

So the first thing is, if I'm tense, I'm wondering, are other people tense. But then the second thing is, what's happening? So I was actually really high in my window just the other day, and I have a series of things I will test myself with because I've trained myself. That's the other thing. You've got to train yourself to do this so it becomes habit. 

So I asked myself, am I facing uncertainty? That's a really good question I ask myself when I'm closer to hyperdysregulating. And I said, yeah. So I just name it to tame it for myself, and I normalize it for myself as if I'm another person. So I'll say, OK, you're facing uncertainty right now, and that's scary. 

And very quickly, I come back into my window because, one, I know what's happening. I have cognition of it. I can put language to it. And two, I'm actually using the language of another person talking to me. So you use the word "codependency," and I want to pull away from that for a second. 

There's self-regulating, which is bringing ourselves into our window. There's also co-regulation. That's where we bring each other into our windows, that great conversation with your best friend after a tough day, 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah right. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: That moment where you talk to your grandparent or your parent or someone who you're just so close to, or that fight you have with your sibling, which really leaves you down and out and depleted. That's co-regulation or co-dysregulation. And we do both. We influence each other all the time. 

So Daniel Siegel, the father of the Window of Tolerance, actually has a word for this. He calls it mwe, M-W-E. And that is when we are in sync with one another, ideally in the good way. So we're resonating with one another. And he talks about how, even though we have a single brain in one physical body, what's actually happening is our brains are connecting right now, yours and mine-- so our brains have relationship. 

And I like to imagine this almost like neural pathways. So neurons have these little arms called synapses. And when we make knowledge, the synapses hold hands. I want you to just play with this analogy for a second. They hold hands. And the more they hold hands, and the more often they hold hands, they get covered in this goo called myelin. 

And so a myelinated sheath of two synapses connected together, or in our case, is gooey hands, are more intense knowledge. Now, I like to think of brains as holding invisible synapses. So I like to imagine one of my brain synapses, my relational synapses connected to yours right now. And as we're engaging, we're myelinating that thing. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And so when you think about what's happening when we're co-regulating each other, you can almost imagine that we've got some invisible part of us touching the other party. And we're actually in connection with each other. Brains, those separate bodies have their own beautiful, invisible magic going on. 

And so when we're co-regulating each other, you can almost imagine physically bringing someone down. And really, really interesting science supports this. If you go to attachment theory, attachment figures are fancy academic for love. Now, really interestingly, when they did a study on married men, and while, on average, married men live longer, they found that when married men had insecure attachment to their partners-- or sorry, not even insecure attachment. But when they were fighting with their partners, their cortisol levels went up. Their heart rate went up. 

And so actually, the relationship was damaging. And if I recall correctly-- and I can't remember in this moment, so don't quote me on it-- I'm pretty sure this was an insecure attachment. So actually, when we think about it, we're impacting each other's heart rate, each other's hormones. 

So if we pull away from this idea of codependency and start going, I'm actually in imaginary physical connection with these people, and my words-- sticks and stones may break my bones, but words would never harm me. No, words have real impact. And they can be bullets, or they can be blankets. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Words, energy, your body language in a room-- 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Everything. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I think all that. I love the visual because I don't know if you've ever come across the book The Extended Mind, Annie Murphy Paul. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: No. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: It's a great book. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: --read it now. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And just the one thing that comes from that is she says that, as beings, we are picking up signals from people, things, environment all the time. And in fact, that is as much part of the way our brains process and learn as is the information we take in. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah, we're very social animals. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: --energy, moods, the words and the emotions that connect with the words, and all that. The image you've given me of these synapses and the goo, it's a really great way of describing to leaders when they're talking to the people in their circle, imagine these kinds of connections are happening. 

So the scenario that I'm thinking of is sometimes as a leader, you're running a meeting. And it's also as a facilitator, professional-- you're running these meetings, and part of your job is to watch what's happening in the room between parties in the room, like a mediator, right? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And I've been in a number of situations where there's some kind of chemistry or conflict that's off between a couple members on the team, and they just can't see eye-to-eye. And you want to avoid these meetings because something's going to happen, and you get some passive aggressive behavior and all these things. But underlying what, as a leader, you're watching happening in a dynamic are some of this dysregulation that we're talking about. As a leader, your opportunity is to think about this from a windows of tolerance. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yes. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: What's happening for this person? What's happening for this person? What's happening for you? What's happening to the entire mood and environment in the room? And by having this simple visual and saying, OK, here's a couple of things you can do. How do you professionally take a break? 

How do you say a few words that help the synapses and the goo form between people? What can you do to get people to connect? Those are all really powerful mechanisms, but the trigger is just visualizing that window really does help. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: It really does. I'll give you an image you can post on your website. I have an image where I put a bunch of different people-- or just a bunch of different windows of tolerance, really, and little arrows between them. And there's one person to whom pretty much everyone is connected, but there are also people to whom they have no connection. But they're influenced by the entire cluster because everybody's co-regulating or co-dysregulating one another. 

And I mean, when you're in a meeting-- I'm going to take it to a different example first because I think it will help. I think about bullies a lot, especially when-- because my career started in violence. So in Brene Brown's words, "you got to dance with the one that brung ya." A lot of the time, I do the trauma. I start with the violence. 

And from a neuroscientific perspective, I think so much of that schoolyard bullying is, let's see which one of us dysregulates first. I'm going to push you to cry. I'm so dysregulated that I need you to dysregulate worse It's only thing that's going to co-regulate me because that makes me feel like I have some power. I don't feel like I have some power. 

And then take the opposite. Like, take the person who totally withdraws, and their spouse finds them terribly neglectful. They're saying, I'm not going to be part of this. Or I can't be part of this yet. I'm stuck in my turtle shell. It's too unsafe for me to deal with this right now. 

And so you take these two very, very different examples of dysregulation that are on different ends of the spectrum. And you take it to that meeting. The first thing as a leader and as a facilitator you got to know is just do a power imbalance analysis, right? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: As a leader facilitating that meeting, you're not neutral. As a mediator, I'm a neutral. Nobody has a relationship with me, or they do have a relationship with me to the extent that I built one. But they all know I'm there for the common purpose of being on everyone's team to get the job done. 

When I'm there as a professor, or you're there as a leader, we're making calls. We have to exercise judgment that impacts these people. So the first thing is know where I'm not neutral, and know who might be perceiving me in particular ways and how I can impact them. 

The second thing is then, know what you don't know. So I say to my students, because I'm a second semester course, we run through-- we just have a whole moment right in class 1 where we talk about all the different power imbalances that exist in the room. 

And at one point, if someone hasn't thought about it already, and they rarely do, I say, well, all of you know each other. I'm the new kid on the block. You all have your own dynamic, your own history. You have all of this. I know nothing. I'm significantly at a power imbalance here. 

And I think what leaders need to know or just need to remember is you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what was said at the water cooler. You don't know who's going through a breakup. You don't know who's having fertility struggles and just had another nonviable pregnancy. There's so many different things your people are going through and you don't get to know. So one of my favorite aphorisms taught to me by Paul Randolph-- 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Are you going to say it? I know the one. I wanted to talk-- 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: You know you're going to get it. There's always a reasonable reason for the unreasonable behavior. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it. Let's say that again, because that's-- 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: There's always a reasonable reason for the unreasonable behavior. And the corollary to that-- I want to put a semicolon after that because it usually gets the full stop. So there's always a reasonable reason for the unreasonable behavior, semicolon, and I don't always get to know what it is. 

I've got to walk into that room going, I don't know what I don't know, and I am not entitled to know. I have to assume people are vulnerable today and that I don't know the nature of that vulnerability. And I have to assume that as the leader, as that facilitator, that I'm looking at body language. I'm getting some clues. 

And I have to assume that some people are so close to hypodysregulation or are so close to hyperdysregulation. And I have to make a lot of room and empathy for that. I got to walk into a room assuming something's wrong and still facilitate the logical conversation. And I think something that goes wrong so often, is people walk in and say, we're all right. We're OK. Let's get the job done. 

I want to flip that on its head. I walk into a room and go, everyone's having a bad day. Let's just start from that premise. And I remember in the pandemic, someone, a mentor of mine-- I don't have his consent to share this, so I won't name him. I was on the phone with him, and I'd messed up. 

I don't remember what I'd messed up on, but I'd messed up. And I felt it. And he said, you know what I'm noticing about this pandemic? I'm noticing that everyone needs double the slack. So, Raheena, you get double the slack. I'm giving everyone double the slack, because even if I don't know that they need it, I think they do. 

And so I think walking in the room going, OK, let's just assume everyone needs double the slack. Everyone needs this support and care. I need to walk in assuming everything's wrong and that we still got to keep this boat running, that the boat still is at threat of capsizing. And that's on me. I got to steer this boat. I got to keep it from capsizing. I got to run this team. 

And one thing that always sticks with me, particularly if I take us back to that whole AI and culture thing, is Krishnamurti said, it is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And I look at the fact that we live in an attention economy, and that attention economy-- I was looking up stats before we were chatting today. 

I just had to Google all of this, and I recommend everybody else have a Google of it because you might get different search results. One of my search results told me that people spend three seconds before they decide whether they're going to engage any further with a post or not. It takes 10 seconds for an emotion to get from back here to over here. 

People spend 15 seconds on a website. That means they have 5 seconds of prefrontal time max to make a decision about whether they're going to engage with your content or not. Pull that back. What's happening in these rooms? What's happening in our culture? We're dysregulated by virtue of the fact that we live in an attention economy because we're doing things too fast to get to our prefrontal cortex. And then think about politicians. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: For sure. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: When they're getting data that says, people aren't going to pay attention to you within 10 seconds, what are they doing? They're trying to win hearts and minds from dysregulated spaces, which goes back to what I was saying, the politics of dysregulation. 

And so then we live in a political environment that's influenced by dysregulated choices, which are out of fear. We're living in a commercial environment where we're spending money based on 3 seconds of engagement. I mean, at least it's a minimum. Maybe 15 seconds. So we're in a cost-of-living crisis. We've got politically dysregulated environments that we're in. People are not OK. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: No, right, right. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And because people are not OK, we have to stop and go, healthy brains were designed or evolved to dysregulate when we're unsafe. So if the brain constantly thinks we're unsafe, then those who are healthy to begin with should be demonstrating anxiety or withdrawal or all of these things, right? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: So now you go and say, the people who are OK maybe were the ones who weren't OK to begin with. And so then you just have to start from this process where you just go, everyone's in crisis. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, that's a very interesting starting point, for sure. For sure. And a simple thing that I think I did, again, not knowing any of what you've said, was I was immersed into a leadership role in the middle of the pandemic because the person I succeeded passed away suddenly. 

So all of a sudden, you knew the team was already in some kind of difficult trauma and processing. And then on top of that, we were in the middle of a pandemic. And so I, without understanding the theory, basically assumed that nobody was OK because they just lost their leader and their friend. And we were going through the pandemic, and people were going all sorts of pressures at home on that front. 

So I just started every meeting with, just take a moment. I'd love you all to share. Give me a number or a word that describes how you're feeling right now. And that was the beginning of the conversation, allowed people to share. You don't have to share more if you don't want to. And if anybody would like to share verbally, please do. 

And that just helped everybody say, OK, I'm not alone, gave that person a chance to talk, started the meeting off in a different kind of tone. And then we got to business. And I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time, but I think it's that instinct that you just articulated, is what I was trying to do. So encourage all leaders to start with that. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: You had the facts that you knew no one was OK. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yes, exactly right. You don't always know. [CHUCKLES] 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Well, I would suggest to start with the presumption, if everyone's OK, that thing is going to go really smoothly anyways, isn't it? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a beautiful way of thinking about it. And it's so funny, when you talked about-- I just want to live on that quote a little bit. People will hear it again in my summary because it was so meaningful to me. 

There's always a reasonable reason for unreasonable behavior, and you think about the number of times in our relationships, in our leadership, in our organizations where we go into judgment mode so quickly. Somebody does something. We make a bunch of assumptions as to why they did it. We try to solve for that, or we talk to this person or that person about that person's behavior, as opposed to stepping back and saying, I wonder what's going on? 

So for me, one of my favorite quotes is from Walt Whitman, which is "be curious, not judgmental." I usually end my leadership sessions with that quote. Now, what you're suggesting with your semicolon addition to that is be curious, not judgmental. But just because you're curious, it doesn't mean you will get your answer. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah. Or if you do get your answer, you won't get the whole answer. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I mean, if you walk into an organization where everyone's been working with each other, the leadership team has been working with each other for 20 years, they have so much context and history. You could work with them for the next three years and be a fantastic leader. You still won't know about that thing that happened 17 years ago that's still sitting on someone's mind. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Absolutely, absolutely. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And so there's almost like learning to recognize your own relationship to uncertainty and then being willing to face the fear that comes with that and say, I'm uncertain. I don't know. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: And you may never know. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And I may never know, and I'm going to proceed anyway. So Barbara Stanny talks about the stretch. I love this. The stretch is when you are afraid of something, and you do it anyways. And so this could be the really difficult conversation with your spouse. This could be raising your rates. 

This could be the thing that you are afraid of. It's not one of those fears you don't know you don't know. It's once you've accrued that knowledge, you go, I'm going to do it anyways. And I'm going to risk it because the reward is worth it. And then my addition to this is I'm going to risk it, and I know I have self-regulation skills. So if I fall and hurt myself, I can catch myself. 

And I know I have a good network of curated, good, wholesome, co-regulating relationships where, if I fall and skin my knee, or if I bump my head emotionally, I've got someone who's going to give me my emotional pack of ice. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: For sure. Well, and then the other side of that is that the other person might-- like, I might not want to have this conversation with this person because of their possible reaction. So on one hand, you could say, it may not be as bad as I expect. On the other hand, it could be exactly as bad as I expect. Or it could be worse than I expect. But walking into the situation knowing that any of those three possibilities could happen, and it'll still be OK. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yes, it will be OK. There's an element of cultivating trust with yourself. And the only way you cultivate true trust with yourself is by proving it to yourself. You cannot say, if you close this contract, I will buy you a chocolate croissant, and then not buy yourself that chocolate croissant. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Right, right. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: You cannot say, I will wake up at this point and take you, body, for a walk and then not do it, because your body will start to distrust you. But when you build these micro habits and build with yourself a certain amount of trust, you know will be OK because you'll have your own back. And you also will think about the value of strong relationships and curate relationships and know who you're going to call for what. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: I love it, so good. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And so someone once asked me-- I was talking to a very close mentor of mine, and I was talking about how I was thinking about whether I wanted to move into arbitration or not. And we ended up talking about what makes you feel competent. And I said, well, I feel like a very competent mediator. Part of the reason that is because I know I'm OK to say when I don't know. 

And I'm quite confident that I can get on the phone to various different people and say, help me understand this. And I trust that somewhere in my network, there will be enough pieces of the answer that I will learn what I don't know. And I am also confident to say, if this is hard, I have mentors, or I have colleagues who will support me. 

And the value of a good debrief-- I mean, a lot of times we do this work And it's not just mediators, it's anybody. It's leaders. It's business people. We do the work. We close the contract. We make the sale. 

If we don't stop and debrief, we're not closing off the thing. It feels like an open tab in-- not the window of tolerance, but on your Safari window or on your Chrome window. That act of a little debrief, no matter how short, closes that tab. It stops taking that energy. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So the comparison I have-- and my goodness, we have talked so deeply about so many things. And I still feel like we've just scratched the surface. So we're going to have to find a way to bring this conversation to a close for the audience. 

But what you've described to me, and I think of it, the micro habits and the trusting-- one of the things that I talk a lot about is, I was introduced to this principle during my training of the virtuous cycle of learning, as that based on your brain chemistry, neuroscience, if you set yourself a realistic but challenging goal, it triggers the brain chemistry that makes you want to seek ways to accomplish that goal. It's not too easy. It's not so difficult. The right balance you'll seek ways to accomplish. 

You could just stop there and get into research and analysis and just conversations with people about how they did it. But if you take it that step further and you actually try something, and even if you're not successful, you make mistakes, it gives you a nice boost of, again, your neurochemical reaction. That itself is fine. But if you add on this element of what you just described, of reflection, even for a little bit, it starts closing that circle. 

And if you do that a couple of times, your body, your brain, everything realizes that cycle can occur and will automatically propel you to do that cycle over and over and over again, which is how people get really good at things or accomplish goals over time, whether it's losing weight or getting better at something, is they found a way to connect that dots, which is basically what you're describing, getting your brain and your body to trust you, that when you do this, you're going to do this next. And you're going to do that next, and that's really good. And I want to keep doing it to support you in that journey. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah, just creating those agreements with yourself and sticking to them. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: And it's funny, as you talk about reflection-- and this probably is a good closing place because we can reflect on the conversation. So I'm doing my postgraduate certificate in higher education right now, and one of the things I'm learning is that reflection is the highest form of learning. There's passive learning, reading a book, watching a movie. 

There's active learning. Maybe that's working with a team, or when you're reading, writing in the margins, really engaging with it, reflective. And there's collaborative learning and all of that. But reflective learning is the highest form. 

And one thing I love about being a mediator is it is a very self-reflective practice. One of the things that we're told to do is after each negotiation, stop. Look back, and say, what did I learn? What did I unlearn? 2020, if I had the exact same people and the exact same conflict again, how would I do it differently? 

And so as you're thinking about reflecting, I'm just taking this moment to stop and reflect on this conversation alone. And there's so many things that we have touched upon, and it does feel like we scratched the surface. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, we just did. Yeah. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: But by that same token, I feel like we've come from just the triangular career I have to wading through different ways that we all have to handle these relational and social challenges, and when you're in that leadership position, doing that from a position of some power and still finding ways of balancing that power. But how would you reflect on this conversation? 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, no, I mean, so much of what you said, it just reaffirms for me that the things that you described in a different context, how many of those things you described I immediately resonate with because I've experienced them in a completely different context. 

And so the reflection I have is the interconnections of us to each other and the interconnections between parts of our lives, parts of our body, parts of our brains. And we are meant to be connected, and we are meant to connect. And the reflection for me is that moment where you are able to draw on those connections. 

Like, my favorite moments of reflection are when I get to write an article for LinkedIn. It seems like I do it for my network, but I really do it as my reflective exercise. And it's always about connecting. And so that's what I think about. Let me turn to a couple of just lightning round questions. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Sure, yeah. Go for it. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: --way of closing dinner conversation. Favorite book or movie about conflict resolution? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: I want to say Mindsight. It's not really about conflict resolution. It's really about how the brain works. But I think when you learn those different facets, the immediacy with which you can apply it to conflict resolution is fantastic. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, awesome. I've heard you say a lot when we've had conversations in your training. Do you guys, everybody had a chance to have a hot beverage with them? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: [CHUCKLES] Yeah. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: So I want to ask you, what's your favorite hot beverage and why? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Oh, it depends on the situation. Today, it is a decaf coffee. And the why is because when people hypodysregulate-- so hyper naming entertainment works. It's just one of the examples that works. I could find almost nothing about supporting people in hypodysregulation. 

All of the negotiation writing was all about hyperdysregulation. What I learned in my investigations was, if in doubt, follow the paramedics. And what did they do? They give you heat, whether that's the blanket. They give you hydration, and they give you vitamins. 

And so after a certain hour, or when I want to stay really in the middle of my window, if I've had caffeine before, I'll go for a decaf coffee because then I'm not stimulating my sympathetic nervous system. And at the same time, I'm getting that heat. And it's closer to hydration than caffeine, which would take away my hydration. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: That's a great tip. And thank you for giving me the background of the origin of that. OK, last questions-- one of the things we didn't talk about, but one of the things you did a lot in our training, I've learned from my own facilitation training about creating variety in your experience to keep learners engaged-- one of the things that you did that I will never try is you actually sing for us. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: [LAUGHS] Yeah, I do. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: You sing for us. It doesn't matter how many people in the room. You will sing for us. It brings a lot of joy. What is your favorite song to sing out loud in a room full of people? 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: In a room full of people. I pick the songs based on the people. I actually spent some time preselecting, but I will say one of my favorite songs to belt out on my own is "Vienna" by Billy Joel. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, I love that song. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Yeah, it's really self-regulating. It's actually co-regulating. I find Billy in that song is co-regulating someone who's quite anxious. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yes, absolutely. That's "Vienna" [INAUDIBLE]. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: He's like, slow down, you crazy child. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Take the phone off the hook. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Oh, so good. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Let's co-regulate together. Let's not go and stay in that rat race. It's a great co-regulation song. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: OK, everybody, that's the way to end this conversation. Go and listen to "Vienna" by Billy Joel as a great way of paying tribute to Raheena and thanking her for this time. I am so grateful. And this conversation over-delivered anything that I ever expected, so thank you for doing that. Such a joy you are. You are an intellectual delight to speak to, so thank you. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: Well, thank you so much for having me. I love having these conversations. It's been such a wonderful experience getting to know you, and I can't wait to talk with you more and just geek out with you as the years go on. 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: Yeah, awesome. Thank you. Have a great day. 

RAHEENA LALANI DAYHA: You, too. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

SHAKEEL BHARMAL: There were so many layers in that conversation, I think this is going to be extremely challenging to sum up. What a rich, thought-provoking conversation with Raheena. Among the many powerful insights she shared, the concept of the window of tolerance really stands out for me. It reminds us that each of us operates within a range where we feel safe, regulated, and able to engage meaningfully. 

And we can stretch within that window. But when we exceed the window, whether through a heightened sense of stress or a fight-or-flight response, by shutting down completely, we lose access to our best thinking and decision-making. As leaders, understanding and managing our own window of tolerance is critical, particularly in high-stakes situations. 

And equally important is being attuned to the windows of tolerance of the people we lead, recognizing the signals of dysregulation and creating environments where safety and connection thrive. Raheena also challenges us to assume that everyone we interact with, especially in high-pressure settings, may be dealing with some form of trauma, details of which we may never know. Yet, this awareness alone can shift how we approach human connection, fostering greater empathy, patience, and understanding. 

A quote that really does capture this beautifully is, "There is always a reasonable reason for unreasonable behavior." As leaders, this quote reminds us to manage interactions with care. We should strive to understand what we can, acknowledge what we do not know, and accept that there are things we may never uncover. And in doing so, we create space for curiosity, over-judgment, and bring compassion into our leadership. 

If there is one takeaway from this episode, it is this-- by actively managing ourselves, being aware of the hidden stories in others, and embracing the complexity of human connection, we can lead with greater impact and integrity. Thank you for listening to this fascinating exploration. I hope it inspires you to reflect on your own practices as a leader, mediator, or simply as a human navigating this complex world. 

Now, there is no way we could have done justice to Raheena's full background in this conversation. Her interests are multi-layered. If you want to learn more about her, you can find her on LinkedIn. And I'll have a link to her profile in the episode notes, as well as a link to a document that has some of the visuals that she described in this conversation. 

Thank you for listening, and have a fantastic day. And as this is our first episode of the new year, wishing you and yours all the very best for 2025. May it be a fulfilling, impactful learning year for you. Take care. Thank you for listening. 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support. Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you. 

To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, visit oceanbluestrategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivey Academy. Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast. And an exceptional thanks to my favorite indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast. Discover more about them on Instagram @lncconnected, and enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode. 

[LATE NIGHT CONVERSATIONS, "SURRENDER"]

I'm not where I want to be 

Maybe where I'm meant to be 

I beg, I plead for clarity 

Break this cage and set me free 

I don't care, and I don't feel 

I don't know what's really real 

And I cry, and I cry