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Nadine De Gannes, Assistant Professor, Managerial Accounting and Control & Sustainability at Ivey Business School, shares with us her experiences as an early-career academic and case author, the elements of a compelling case, linking research and practice, and using the teaching note to create a safe space for difficult conversations by sharing “promising practices.” We wrap up our discussion with the advice that Nadine wished she had received at the beginning of her case writing journey.
View Nadine’s cases below:
Barrick Gold: Integrating ESG into the (Post-Merger) Executive Performance Scorecard
Viet Nipa: A Young Entrepreneur’s Sweet Endeavour
Magna International and Dual Share Unification
Transcript
Hello, I'm Mat Quinn thanks for joining us for decision point from Ivy Publishing at the Ivy Business School with us today is Nadine de Gans, an associate professor in managerial accounting and control and sustainability at Ivy. The Dean shares with US her experiences as an early career, academic and case afther, the elements of a compelling case how teaching research and practice blend together and using teaching notes to create a safe space for difficult conversations by sharing promising practices. We wrap up our discussion with the advice of the deed wish she had received in beginning her case writing journey. I hope you enjoy it. First of all, thank you very much for joining us today. I know it's a busy time as we're getting back getting prepared to go back to the classroom in one form or another, and maybe that's what where we'll start is the classroom? Can you talk a little bit about your journey from an H, BA student to an assistant professor? You know, as it relates to your journey through the case method. How does you learn to write your first case and are there any major things that you've picked up along the way that were kind of Aha moments? So my my experience at cases- yes, indeed started with the HB program and and massively shaped the case, rater that I would be kept, and I would say it's probably an emotional link to to the cases that I remember most vividly and I reflected are in the process of case writing. What stuck with me from my own HB A and a case that stood out was Mok, the pharmaceutical company and river blindness, and I remember, being such a heated discussion and spending the time after that class respecting so deeply on it. I M thinking to myself what really needs a difference that be with that case in that class was. The issue was something I cared about and the preparation I had done as a result of really caring about the case and its content need all the differences to how I came to the classroom that day and then being quite quite riled up after the clash discussion reflecting on it really deep. An that experienced me, so those were those were ways. I I thought about my own case writing in wanting to to create that kind of experience, the the the desire to prepare extensively and intensively the excitement to come and discuss with pairs on issues that we care about and and then to think about it afterward, and to reflect on on what you know. We use the word, often enough to in education on what that transformative or transmarina experience was, and so that in hindsight, I think I'm for more articulate in what, in what I took from my age, be to my kids writing experience, but it center very much on the. How do I want students to feel, because I remembered so vividly how I felt about that case now? Are there things like when you you get inspiration from the news as it social media? Is it the research? And what do you get the kind of like the spicy senses going off that you know? I feel something for this or I think a student could feel like what is it that that stands out for you that prompts you to write a case now like what is it that really grabs your attention? I read so much news, I'm quite quite a bit across across many sort of geopolitical and geographical regions, and that comes from you and growing up in in Trinidad and and my parents and family live in for other countries and now having done schooling in Canada in the UK. So I stay quite close to news in many parts of the world and I get quite excited about many things that come up in news, but I think one thing that I had to settle myself with this. I needed to also feel like I held some expertise in the thing that I that I wanted to write about in the classroom because it wouldn't be. You be a whole lot more work. If we just took the thing, we were very excited about and tried to write the case on it and but but be you know, because we only have so much time and resources, and so with the time and resources that I have. How could I be really impactful really quickly, and so I think that shapes very much on what I pick up out of the the financial press. That's still den alines very closely with the things that I have studied very intensively and that kind of leads to my next question, because you talked about the expertise, and you know to me that obvious. That brings up questions around research and and in yourview you know how is research, teaching and practice related or tried together? And what's that experience look like for you and, and so already was predisposed through my research to be interested in the field and what was happening with practitioners but then being true to the academic, trying to think about what that meant, perceptually and what that could mean. Theoretically, and so my research goes from the empirical to the conceptual. But when I came to pace teaching, I wanted to start with the conceptual and the theoretical and then find the empirical settings that I felt would bring that to life and and keep that that sort of symbiotic relationship, quite quite close, so that it would always be sort of dialogue between the academic research, the practice and the pedagogy in the classroom. Those three look very very closely and and necessarily so, because I feel for an early, I could early core academic. I am so short on time well time. How do you make this work because you know there's pressure to publish, and I really like how you said: You know what what style of research that you have so there's a a relatedness to case writing and narrative as well, but there's pressures and there's only so much time. How are you balancing the pressure to publish research with the case writing and you seem to be doing it really well, what is your key to success here? Really early on, we received an email one of those generally emails from the Center for teaching and learning that encourage early care academics to write the teaching philosophy and it occurred to me. I because I wrote that teaching philosophy. I wanted to be quite clear on how I wanted to go in the classroom. It occurred to me to also write my research philosophy. I imagine a good mental might see, suggest that one do that, but the the beauty of writing. Both your teaching philosophy and your research philosophy is figuring out the threads of connection and getting quite quite clear on prioritizing those that have threads of connection and that's a that's why I send to an entirely what are my priorities in the context of bull research and teaching and then just as well service. So I say often enough. My world is Edi a petty divas inclusion and e street environmental, social and government. I live with two very clar acronyms that that populate much much bigger worlds, but it helps to keep me focused in between the two biggest parts of my my my work. So what I'm hearing in that that I really like and it's something that you know correct me if I'm wrong here, but you know you, you took the time to prioritize and then made a very concerted effort to look for the links or, like you said, those threads, that link these things together and then and then focus on that. Maybe you know from a practical level here, how do Cases Complement Traditional Research or journal Articles? What are those threads that you've noticed in your career? I said early that I'm an interview baserite and was a historic at so when I studied executive compensation. I studied the rise of thirty or forty years in the British context, and I love history. I think a subset of my students also really love history, but most students want to get the the bits and pieces that are very, very relevant to what's going to equip them for their jobs, careers ahead of them what's going to help them, be quit critical thinkers in the many different spaces they're going to populate in months or years to come, and so I have to. I often find myself thinking about not hoing what I love, but but what the many different types of lunars would also enjoy, and so we have to reconcile our research to that that if we wanted to have an impact in the in higher education and then society eloge that we have to be visited, we have to be malleable. We have to think about not only what excites us, but what excites our students, what excites practitioners about the research that we do and to still it? You know the academy can feel quite disconnected from practice because we operate in Spars of Dragon and very peculiar specific language, and we don't. We don't need that to to well. We certainly should be quite careful that the disencourage being parts of discourses that should be connecting US- and so I think, it's sort of situating myself in the many different ways that students, practitioners, Qua Leagues, learn, dialogue, debate and finding myself flexible it my language now, that's possibly where bridges have to be built between distilling. What is in the academic research and then talk to what can be quite highly digestible in you know, white papers that I enjoy doing. I love the three to five pages that I can also have the ten fifteen. I probably will not write seventy five thousand with thesis again in my life, but that's the core of my my knowledge. So it's just thinking about how do I lift out from there to connect to as many conversations vibrant conversations, because the more people we have access to the more feet, bout, each we get on the research questions that were most interested in and the more dynamic research can be and the more impactful research can be. So when I hear you talk about that, there's a few things that I'm writing down and listing down as things that are really important for not only research but cases so relevant digestible for the case. You already mentioned exciting and it brings up a feeling for you. You know it's important for you to take the perspective of the student and what might be important for them or different ways of learning. Are there other things that come to mind that are really key elements that make for a compelling case? You know, there's a lot of new case writers listening to the PODCAST and I'd love for them believe with you know, with your perspective of what they should think about for making a compelling case. You know I said exciting, because that's the so perpetual optimist in me, but I also do a lot of work in very upsetting spaces and- and I would say no- I study executive compensation, not really recognizing that the thing I was more broadly concerned is inequality in communiquait and social inequality, and so, when I'm writing to this topic now it's. How do I create the space for us to have these difficult conversations recognizing that they're, very scary, but a number of them? You know you think about contemporary issues, social justice and injustice, equity and inequity. These are pervasive topics. What we're going to do with our environment. What what is it going to mean to include the a widening participation of students and High Education, and so when we think about bringing those topics and necessarily should be thinking about bringing those topics into high educations? This is, I still romanticise education as a place where we can debate ideas and ideology, and do so with with content that will be upsetting. But how can we do that craftily and with care, and the case provides that opportunity, because you can set the stage and have the dialogue and- and so what I think is possible is- is a kind of deep connecting to the to social, to the social, to society, social context just as well, and and that that's enormous possibility for the incredible amount of research that I see my own colleagues doing in this space on what they could bring to to the case. I think cases maybe haven't touched them as much as they could have historically, but we have a moment now and there's rich extensive amounts of research on a host of issues and possibilities that should be making their way into cases. Now so is that is that the key you mentioned you know, sometimes you know you're dealing with upsetting things, difficult conversations that you're really encouraging them to happen in the safe environment of the classroom. You know, is the key bringing in more of the research bringing it to bring it to light in a case context. What have been your methods for not not overcoming the upsetting part of it but handling it appropriately. In a case, what's been the key for you to do that so return to these the empirical realities of cases, they can feel very local and research, especially research done at Cross Sectional Longitude, Al Cross Geographical gives you the global, and so research creates that incredible opportunity to map that empirical local setting to global if the case in itself is not contextualized in a global way, and- and- and I liken that to when you think of the upsetting its upsetting fan- an individual for the self and that can feel like a very absolute thing, sometimes for our students, but that should also be mapping to systems a broder systems of inclusion and exclusion, marginalization and I'm not, and so, when I'm thinking about the conversations that we have between cases and research, I'm thinking the possibilities between that local and global and that self and that system recognizing that selves aren't always perfectly reflective of systems. But they are detached for disentangled from them either. So this is the complementary pieces of both of those those worlds blending, and is that do you do that not only through the case, but how are you managing that in a teaching note context, I think the possibilities I am men in the teaching note. I think my sense is that there is opportunity there for us to create more more promising practices. I think is the weird and stay staring clay of best practices, because I think that there's a lot of learning that needs to happen in the space and we need to create the space just as well to make those mistakes and learn from them and better dialogue. I think between Piaceri ers around what the promising practices have been for that and what is the kind of language that we can put in, and you know I hesitate to say, sort of off the shelf, but I think there's a they're probably going to be language that we can take. There will be language we can take off of a shelf and put into our teaching, not because there is already emerging lots of promising practices around what it would need to build an inclusive classroom, what it would mean to restore dignity if this lost, if e, if a comet comes out and just lands badly and and that's often not so the intention, it's a different situation. If it was intentional, we deal with that differently. But as long as we try to give a little bit of room for, let's say a student or Electra, O Kase facilitator to take a second goal at something. They've said, I think if we provide those kinds of steps and bits of advice and teaching notes, it gives people the confidence to recover kiss case discussions for those of us who Tokai cases know very well that you don't have a class O the same way, even if you're teaching the same case, they have a life of their own based on the seventy five people. You have sitting in front of you because they're bringing their lived experience, they're, bringing their knowledge base, and so in that regard you know what is replicable is the advice we give about kind of bringing calm to space or restoring what I consider to be sort of respect or dignity in a space. Those bits we can, we can put into teaching notes, that's that's promising practice. I think I like that. You mentioned that it's a safe space not only for the students to explore, but also for the person at the at the head of the class, the person presenting the case or moderating the discussion that you know that should be a safe space for them as well, because there will be stumbles, there will be mistakes, but I really like that you that you mentioned that, so you know the I guess of a follow up to this. Is You know, as things are continuing to evolve, and I really like the the notion of promising practices? Well, that's going to continue to change so, as should the teaching out now like, should we be going back and and as authors looking at cases that we've written before going what's the latest that we can bring to this teaching noter of the case? What are your thoughts on evolving in an updating cases? Yes, absolutely I'm thinking of that for my own case and I've lent so much about myself in this past year, as I've deepened into my research on Edi, for example, and and wanting to take that back to my my executive compensation and Estkati to think about. Well, I'm talking about mining and mining as an industry. Hires is the largest sort of employer of indigenous peoples in Canada, for example. In what we have, I been thoughtful in contextualize that reality and and so there it should give us pause. I think, as we come to learn more and no more about ourselves, our expertise and our teaching pedagogy to have the opportunity to feel like that's, very accessible, that going back and adding a few sentences, another resource for ourselves and others right, because we wed lease our cases into the world and and so while we might think. Oh, I'm updating my note to myself. I think we have to consider that we have a responsibility for all all educators that pick up our our cases are not teaching notes, and so I would love to do better. I haven't I haven't gotten there, and so maybe then the conversation has to also become how do we make that easier? How do we make the teaching note at feel easier and also how to provide the kinds of additional content that thate facilitators case writers lecturers feel able to pull those into into their teaching notes? And I'm just I just love the idea of open access and free resources in the context of equity to pull that into teaching US teaching materials yeah. I think it's, you know that's kind of a call to action to us that in publishing units or publishing companies or the industry as a whole, you know you did ask the question: What can we do to make it easier? What can we do to bring in some of these other resources and is something that we're actively asking ourselves, but you know, admittedly, can can do better now, one of the things that you mentioned. It leads me to my last question here. You know really give us a sense of the the writing journey in the journey that you've been on. You just talked to put it in the journey of publishing a case and learning more and revisiting that you know if you had any advice for those again just starting out on their case, writing journey. What advice do you wish that you were given at the outset? And you know what would you like to have parted upon the listener? I am so glad I had ed opportunity to reflect on this question before, because I it's not sort of the most complimentary view of myself that I dropped it down. In fact, because because the thing I'm quite picky about is writing and- and I I'm at I edit in my mind, other people's writing all the time, I'm being a newspaper article, I'm editing it, you know what, whether I can change it or not that that's, I would say it's one of my strikes, but it's also then a weakness, because it means that nothing ever feels perfect. Nothing feels complete. I would carry on editing a case to the end of time, so I think they're, two points to that deadlines, whether given by someone else or self, is pretty essential in the case writing journey. I think the second one is you have to be quite then quite icky is the word if you were to go ahead with you know a case writer or a CO author, because while I might prefer editing a draft and not a blank page, it's something different when you feel like you're, fundamentally rewriting and because the case, especially if it's a personification of your research and that always is quite personal, at least for me, my research is very personal, so that my case becomes quite personal. Then you have to line well and do a bit more due diligence on matching yourself up with someone who writes in a way that you don't feel like you're, fundamentally rewriting what there, what is likely good work, but their style, not your style and so those kinds of tiny you know bits of investment in up front could make for a different case. Writing Experience and An said it already time and resources always feel so so limited and you're ready trying to do this incredible thing of bringing your research into the case. So that would be the sort of logistical thing get yourself. Some deadlines get others to give you deadlines and then be quite careful, not the word but be sure to do the due diligence on whether you're well aligned with Co coute. No, that's that's great advice. Thank you! So much for taking the time. You know I've circled here on my page, these these promising practices and I'm going to bring that into you know what we do at a IV publishing, because I think it's a great way of looking at things. That's showing promise it's showing that the things can evolve. You know that we're going to be reflecting on some of the practices that we're having here and from you know from the team. I know you've been doing a number of pieces of work with members of the team here and I be publishing around ESG and Edi practices, and I just want to take the time to thank you for those efforts because, as you just mentioned, time is limited and you have been very generous with the time that you've you've given to our team here and I'm looking forward to seeing some of these things coming out into the community and really having a positive impact on the students, the authors that we work with world wide. So thank you again. Are you very well come that if you enjoy today's episode subscribe to Decision Point On spotify or wherever you listen to be sure, to check out the show notes for links to cases, resources and more? have any feedback, send us an email at cases at IV, dot, CA